Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:20 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: I spoke evidence

not some testimonials
I spoke examples
Hi cappuccino ..

now i understand why the confusion ..

when I asked "and the Evidences?" .. I was talking about the 9 evidences of this scientific research ..

Review of "Evidence of the Afterlife"
http://neardth.com/evidence-of-the-afterlife.php

The Nine Lines of Evidence
http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Lo ... 2--1-2.pdf

and you showed that evidence that some testimonials are false.. ok..

To reach the conclusion of the 9 scientific evidences ... the scientists leave no doubt that they used methods that discard false testimonies.


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cappuccino
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by cappuccino »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: and you showed that evidence that some testimonials are false
true, not false


two best examples, real

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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by mikenz66 »

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:38 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:23 am
When scientists find something which can not be explained with science it does not lead to collapse!!!....not in the least!!!....on the contrary it really excites scientist to find something they can't explain.

Finding things that can't be explained or is not understood is pretty much the entirety of what science is all about.
chownah
Exactly! :goodpost:
I know several scientists who'd be thrilled to find some empirical, provable way to test rebirth. They'd make history, win a Nobel prize, become world famous, and be given lots of $$$.
Unfortunately our current level of tech isn't good enough to detect those levels of reality. But someday, maybe someday...
Yes, if someone could come up with a way of actually doing measurements, they would do it. If measurements were possible, it would just become science. A century or so ago, quantum entanglement, or measuring gravitational waves that travelled for a billion years to get here was not even dreamed of, let alone measured.

It's not quite the same topic, but on the role of consciousness in quantum measurements, there was a paper in Nature a couple of years ago, "Challenging local realism with human choices" which tested whether having people interacting with quantum experiments would make any difference to the outcome. Usually such measurements are made by having a computer making random choices (to set switches and polarizers and so on) but in this case the keystrokes of 100,000 gamers provided the input. The results turned out to be the same as just using a computer, but the point is that the scientists were able to do an experiment which coupled human choice to a quantum measurement.

Here's part of the Editorial about the paper:
0 or 1? Computer gamers have helped to close a quantum loophole.

Wednesday, 30 November 2016 ... a crowd of 100,000 people around the world came together over an online video game to type in a series of 0s and 1s as fast as their fingers could fly, to put to the test a central feature of quantum mechanics.

The gamers were part of a day-long experiment called the BIG Bell Test, the results of which are described in this issue of Nature (The BIG Bell Test Collaboration. Nature 557, 212–216; 2018).

... the paper explores the tension between quantum physics and local realism. The latter brings together two principles: locality — according to which, observing a particle at one physical location cannot have immediate effects on the properties of a particle at a different location — and realism, which expresses how the observable features of particles exist even if we don’t actively measure them. But in quantum mechanics, correlations between distant particles exist that are so strong they violate local realism. Put differently, in quantum theory it is possible to have two correlated particles far away from each other, to measure the first and, as a result, learn something about the second without having observed it directly.

So here’s the conundrum: does quantum mechanics really violate local realism, or could it be the case that some unknown factors would complete the theory and explain these apparent violations? In the 1960s, the physicist John Bell offered a way to tackle the problem in the laboratory, by studying quantum correlations in the form of entanglement. In these experiments, sequences of spatially separated measurements on entangled particles lead to computing a quantity that can have values not possible in the context of local and realistic theories. Bell tests have confirmed the validity of quantum theory many times, but they include assumptions that leave wiggle room for non-quantum explanations as to why local realism is violated, and so physicists have been looking for ways to close these loopholes ever since.

In 2015, physicists showed that successful Bell tests could not be due to speed-of-light communication between the particles, or to inefficient detection processes during the measurements. But another, more subtle, loophole was still open. Bell tests also assume that experimenters have free choice over which measurements they make on each particle. And yet, hidden parameters could be influencing these choices to produce correlations that give the illusion of entanglement.

The BIG Bell Test closes this freedom-of-choice loophole. The various experimental groups had no say in which measurement settings to use. Instead, they performed their measurements according to the unpredictable streams of bits received from the 100,000 gamers.

The results show the presence of correlations strong enough to contradict local realism. Maybe that’s how 30 November 2016 might be remembered: the day the people of the world came together to test quantum theory.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05073-5
Here's the last paragraph of the actual paper:
In summary, on 30 November 2016, a set of 13 Bell tests and similar experiments using photons, single atoms, atomic ensembles and superconducting devices, demonstrated strong disagreement with local realism, using measurement settings chosen by tens of thousands of globally distributed human participants. The results also showed empirically that measurement-setting independence—here provided by human agency—is in strong disagreement with causal determinism, a topic formerly accessible only by metaphysics. The experiments reject local realism in a wide variety of physical systems and scenarios, set the groundwork for Bell-test-based applications in quantum information, introduce gamification to randomness generation and demonstrate global networking techniques by which hundreds of thousands of individuals can directly participate in experimental science.

Spiny Norman
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Spiny Norman »

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:46 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:45 am
Indeed. I also think its unfortunate that science and materialism are so often conflated, since they are rather different things.
Some (actually, it could be a lot) of what is promulgated as "science" is actually scientism.
And scientism would indeed collapse is rebirth would be admitted.
I'm not sure, since science is essentially a method, rather than a philosophy.
No doubt proof for rebirth would shake up the skeptics, just as proof for God would shake up the atheists.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

chownah
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by chownah »

Here is some rebirth data for scientists to take a look at:
List of people claimed to be Jesus at wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... o_be_Jesus
chownah

binocular
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:51 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:46 pm
Some (actually, it could be a lot) of what is promulgated as "science" is actually scientism.
And scientism would indeed collapse is rebirth would be admitted.
I'm not sure, since science is essentially a method, rather than a philosophy.
No doubt proof for rebirth would shake up the skeptics, just as proof for God would shake up the atheists.
I'm talking about scientism. Scientism is an ideology. An ideology can collapse if it introduces elements that are destructive to it.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:28 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: and you showed that evidence that some testimonials are false
true, not false


two best examples, real
:anjali:
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Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:51 am

I'm not sure, since science is essentially a method, rather than a philosophy.
No doubt proof for rebirth would shake up the skeptics, just as proof for God would shake up the atheists.

How would you prove God?

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:43 am
science has no way to determine rebirth as they never have technology to detect or study it.
I would say one quick way to prove rebirth would be to give a description of whom you were assumed to be in your previous life and then ask someone to check the details. Very simple

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Sam Vara
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Sam Vara »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:33 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:43 am
science has no way to determine rebirth as they never have technology to detect or study it.
I would say one quick way to prove rebirth would be to give a description of whom you were assumed to be in your previous life and then ask someone to check the details. Very simple
I don't think it is all that simple. Even if I could give copious details of what I claimed was a former life, and it could be somehow verified that a person did live a life with those details, that's far from proving that it was me in the former life. I might have gained that knowledge about the other person through historical research. If another person has access to the knowledge required to verify the claim, then I would have access to the knowledge to enable me to make a false claim.

Even if it could somehow be proven that my knowledge of a previous life could not have been gained via historical research, that knowledge could be something quite remarkable (mind-reading, say, or the ability to view events that occurred in the past) that still doesn't prove that the knowledge is due to me having lived previously.

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:40 pm
I don't think it is all that simple. Even if I could give copious details of what I claimed was a former life, and it could be somehow verified that a person did live a life with those details, that's far from proving that it was me in the former life. I might have gained that knowledge about the other person through historical research. If another person has access to the knowledge required to verify the claim, then I would have access to the knowledge to enable me to make a false claim.

Even if it could somehow be proven that my knowledge of a previous life could not have been gained via historical research, that knowledge could be something quite remarkable (mind-reading, say, or the ability to view events that occurred in the past) that still doesn't prove that the knowledge is due to me having lived previously.
Some very special details, like where you met your former wife on first date, when you went fishing the first time, what was your credit card number, some special experiences you had with your children, still living, may be something not findable by research by third part.
How would you find by historic research when was the first time a common man taught to shave to his oldest son?

And even if this would not strictly proves that you experienced rebirth, it would still prove that something special is going on.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:40 pm
If another person has access to the knowledge required to verify the claim, then I would have access to the knowledge to enable me to make a false claim.
I would not say so.
You can have access to the knowledge to verify the claim by going to have a talk with the son of the deceased person and ask him about info regarding his deceased father, not previously shared with anyone for example.
But how would you have access to this knowledge if the son hasnt shared such info with anyone before.
It is remarkable that the majority of Theravada Buddhist are not even interested in trying to provide evidence about their own claims.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Sam Vara »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:59 pm
And even if this would not strictly proves that you experienced rebirth, it would still prove that something special is going on.
Yes, it would be possible in theory to prove that a life lived in the past was known about by a currently living person, without that person having access to the usual sources of information about that past life. That in itself would mean that "something special" is going on. But not necessarily rebirth.

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:11 am
Yes, it would be possible in theory to prove that a life lived in the past was known about by a currently living person, without that person having access to the usual sources of information about that past life. That in itself would mean that "something special" is going on. But not necessarily rebirth.
Exactly.
But not even this was even tried.
Arhants or monks at the highest levels of realization should have at least tried to verify their own claims by providing evidence to the general public but, as far as I know, no one even really seriously tried.
Which is a puzzle, if I may say.

rolling_boulder
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by rolling_boulder »

Pascal2 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:53 am
But not even this was even tried.
Arhants or monks at the highest levels of realization should have at least tried to verify their own claims by providing evidence to the general public but, as far as I know, no one even really seriously tried.
Which is a puzzle, if I may say.
They aren't allowed to do that by the Vinaya
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 »

rolling_boulder wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:20 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:53 am
But not even this was even tried.
Arhants or monks at the highest levels of realization should have at least tried to verify their own claims by providing evidence to the general public but, as far as I know, no one even really seriously tried.
Which is a puzzle, if I may say.
They aren't allowed to do that by the Vinaya
What stream-enterers have to lose (let alone Arhants) to violate the Vinaya?
They would still achieve Nibbana no matter what.

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