Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7890
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot »

Dear DW forum

I just received the follow in my email, I assume written by an Ajahn:
There's just one big problem with the approach of denial as described above: Old age, sickness, death and rebirth actually do exist, they are real.

Rebirth is usually denied outright in materialist society. If it were admitted, it would collapse the whole edifice of purely materialistic modern science, because it is impossible to explain with that same science. Ergo, they try to deny the existence of rebirth all together.
Please kindly discuss &/or explain the quote above (because I am not sure what the above quote means).

Thank you
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

chownah
Posts: 8837
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by chownah »

When scientists find something which can not be explained with science it does not lead to collapse!!!....not in the least!!!....on the contrary it really excites scientist to find something they can't explain.

Finding things that can't be explained or is not understood is pretty much the entirety of what science is all about.
chownah

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1515
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:06 am
Dear DW forum

I just received the follow in my email, I assume written by an Ajahn:
There's just one big problem with the approach of denial as described above: Old age, sickness, death and rebirth actually do exist, they are real.

Rebirth is usually denied outright in materialist society. If it were admitted, it would collapse the whole edifice of purely materialistic modern science, because it is impossible to explain with that same science. Ergo, they try to deny the existence of rebirth all together.
Please kindly discuss &/or explain the quote above (because I am not sure what the above quote means).

Thank you
science has no way to determine rebirth as they never have technology to detect or study it. it can be proven by quantum physics as logical theory (i mean conventional rebirth as well as DO reborth every moment). If quantum physics and logical sense is used, then we arrive at conclusion that rebirth takes place but no mass is transfered outside earth. so rebirth without transfer of single sub atom is true. if someone holds reborth takes place by transfer of some energy from here to another planet then its against basic science. so rebirth exist without even moment of anything outside this earth yet there is production of new being far realm with continution and influence of past qualities in earth or previous planet (prev home). If someone needs i can explain it in deep
Last edited by confusedlayman on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

Spiny Norman
Posts: 7399
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Spiny Norman »

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:23 am
When scientists find something which can not be explained with science it does not lead to collapse!!!....not in the least!!!....on the contrary it really excites scientist to find something they can't explain.

Finding things that can't be explained or is not understood is pretty much the entirety of what science is all about.
chownah
Indeed. I also think its unfortunate that science and materialism are so often conflated, since they are rather different things.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SteRo
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by SteRo »

Modern science and rebirth are not opposed from a dhamma perspective. They may however be opposed from a worldly non-dhammic perspective.

So from a dhamma perspective modern science is valid if compliant with the conventions for validity of modern science. Why? Since dhamma is not science modern science does not have to comply with the conventions of dhamma.

In the same vein dhamma is valid if compliant with the conventions for validity of dhamma. Why? Since modern science is not dhamma dhamma does not have to comply with the conventions of modern science.

To summarize: The field of application of modern science is other than the field of application of dhamma.

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 7280
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Ceisiwr »

It wouldn’t collapse science, and I know many scientists who would be happy to scientifically accept such a thing. All it would mean is that materialism is false, but science can work without materialism being true. Science doesn’t accept rebirth as an established theory because of the scanty evidence and the inability to test it in controlled conditions. Science can only deal with the “material”. Rebirth would be an immaterial process, which means it’s beyond the scope of the scientific method. Science just can’t address it, so it’s silent on it.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:06 am
Dear DW forum

I just received the follow in my email, I assume written by an Ajahn:
There's just one big problem with the approach of denial as described above: Old age, sickness, death and rebirth actually do exist, they are real.

Rebirth is usually denied outright in materialist society. If it were admitted, it would collapse the whole edifice of purely materialistic modern science, because it is impossible to explain with that same science. Ergo, they try to deny the existence of rebirth all together.
Please kindly discuss &/or explain the quote above (because I am not sure what the above quote means).

Thank you
Is this about rebirth in the sense of renewed post-mortem existence, or in the sense of a succession of different identifications with something in the same lifetime?

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7890
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:39 am
Is this about rebirth in the sense of renewed post-mortem existence, or in the sense of a succession of different identifications with something in the same lifetime?
It seems this is about rebirth in the sense of renewed post-mortem existence.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 6666
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:56 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:39 am
Is this about rebirth in the sense of renewed post-mortem existence, or in the sense of a succession of different identifications with something in the same lifetime?
It seems this is about rebirth in the sense of renewed post-mortem existence.
Ah, OK, thanks. The key point for me is the term "admitted". For this type of rebirth to "collapse the edifice of science", I assume what is meant is that the paradigm of science (pace Kuhn) would need to be radically overhauled. It would hardly "collapse", as there would still be many areas of science which retained validity as a model of how the universe works.

For rebirth to be "admitted", it would have to be somehow proven. How could we envisage this happening in a way acceptable to modern scientists? :shrug:

Spiny Norman
Posts: 7399
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:30 am
Science can only deal with the “material”. Rebirth would be an immaterial process, which means it’s beyond the scope of the scientific method. Science just can’t address it, so it’s silent on it.
I think it's more accurate to say than science can only deal with the observable. Psychology is also a science, so it's not just about the "material".
The problem with investigating rebirth is finding something objective to observe. Memories, for example, tend to be very subjective.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

chownah
Posts: 8837
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by chownah »

Mostly science deals with those observable-repeatable phenomena which can be observed by pretty much anyone. These repeatable observations are examined and ideas are suggested as to how and why those phenomena occur. So far there has never been an observable-repeatable phenomena which can be observed by pretty much anyone associated with rebirth.....there hasn't even been an observable-nonrepeatable phenomena which can be observed by pretty much anyone reported which is associated with rebirth.....so.....what exactly is there for scientists (or anyone else) to take up?
chownah

binocular
Posts: 7610
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by binocular »

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:45 am
Indeed. I also think its unfortunate that science and materialism are so often conflated, since they are rather different things.
Some (actually, it could be a lot) of what is promulgated as "science" is actually scientism.
And scientism would indeed collapse is rebirth would be admitted.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4223
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by cappuccino »

DooDoot wrote: it would collapse the whole edifice of purely materialistic modern science because it is impossible to explain with that same science
science revises what it accepts

(if there is reason to)

User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by JamesTheGiant »

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:23 am
When scientists find something which can not be explained with science it does not lead to collapse!!!....not in the least!!!....on the contrary it really excites scientist to find something they can't explain.

Finding things that can't be explained or is not understood is pretty much the entirety of what science is all about.
chownah
Exactly! :goodpost:
I know several scientists who'd be thrilled to find some empirical, provable way to test rebirth. They'd make history, win a Nobel prize, become world famous, and be given lots of $$$.
Unfortunately our current level of tech isn't good enough to detect those levels of reality. But someday, maybe someday...

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 22538
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:06 am
Please kindly discuss &/or explain the quote above (because I am not sure what the above quote means).
I suspect it's referring to the "materialistic modern science" position whereby the mind is said to have a material base (i.e. brain).

If the brain dies and the mind continues :alien: then it would apparently disprove the theory of a material base.

I suspect that's what it's getting at, but they're not my words, so it's not really for me to say.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

Post Reply