What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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markandeya
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by markandeya »

dharmacorps wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:31 pm
This is all in how you handle it I think. I have a neighbor who is a very devout Hindu (he was a Hindu priest), and on finding out I am a Buddhist, declared his happiness because Buddha is an representation of Vishnu, therefore we both follow the same religion (meaning, Hinduism). I don't agree, but we do share many aspects of how we follow our paths-- restraint from alcohol, harming, etc. There may come a time when I need to tell him I disagree with his interpretation, but for now, there is more benefit in friendliness and commaraderie in practice with him then engaging in a debate about the Buddha and Hinduism. I view it the same as Mahayana people who hold ideas I disagree with on Theravada. You have to pick your battles.
People in the west take everything literally and thus create self and other

Vishnu means all pervading shuddhi sattva consciousness not bound by klesha

Buddha is the awakened one who leads one to Tathagata which also means all pervading

Buddha then is same in terms of conscious being

Only the mundane literal intellect makes a division and promoted by people with little or no experience and prefer to stick with beliefs

Truth is one

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

PROLOGUE
(by disillusionment about Mahayana Revolution to the Elders & effectively the Buddha)


Buddhism Religion: The Rise of Mahayana Buddhism
The positions advocated by Mahayana [great vehicle] Buddhism, which distinguishes itself from the Theravada and related schools by calling them Hinayana [lesser vehicle], evolved*** from other of the early Buddhist schools.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia
https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia ... a-buddhism




Quite simple.

  • Why Hinayana?
  • Because Mahayanans, 'the latecomers', say so.



Q: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana?
Easy.
  • A: By forever shutting up the mouths of those followers of "Mahayana Buddhism, which distinguishes itself from the Theravada and related schools by calling them Hinayana[The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia]"... by imparting them with good ol' true Dhamma of the Elders, if they are willing and able enough to receive.
:heart:





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Bye for this week. :anjali:
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Dhammanando
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Dhammanando »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:34 pm
Most of these priests follow Amidism, and don't believe nibbāna is attainable anymore, and strive for birth in Sukhavāti,

[...]

THE MORE YOU KNOW!
A couple of quibbles...

Firstly, the aspirations of Pure Land Buddhists are usually directed toward the Happy Land (Sukhāvatī) rather than Happy Farting (Sukhavāti).
:toilet:

Secondly, I believe among Japanese Amidist priests, those of Shinran's Jōdo Shin school greatly outnumber those of Hōnen's Jōdo school. Of the two, it's only the priests in the latter minority school who can be said to be "striving for birth in Sukhāvatī" (i.e. by mantra recitations, petitionary prayers etc.). Those of the Jodo Shinshū believe there's nothing to strive for: their birth in Sukhāvatī is assured and so their religious life consists in saying thank you to Amida, not in asking him for anything.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

dharmacorps
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by dharmacorps »

markandeya wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:14 am

People in the west take everything literally and thus create self and other

Vishnu means all pervading shuddhi sattva consciousness not bound by klesha

Buddha is the awakened one who leads one to Tathagata which also means all pervading

Buddha then is same in terms of conscious being

Only the mundane literal intellect makes a division and promoted by people with little or no experience and prefer to stick with beliefs

Truth is one
I'm sure my Hindu friend would agree with your statements.

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markandeya
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by markandeya »

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 pm
markandeya wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:14 am

People in the west take everything literally and thus create self and other

Vishnu means all pervading shuddhi sattva consciousness not bound by klesha

Buddha is the awakened one who leads one to Tathagata which also means all pervading

Buddha then is same in terms of conscious being

Only the mundane literal intellect makes a division and promoted by people with little or no experience and prefer to stick with beliefs

Truth is one
I'm sure my Hindu friend would agree with your statements.
dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 pm
markandeya wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:14 am

People in the west take everything literally and thus create self and other

Vishnu means all pervading shuddhi sattva consciousness not bound by klesha

Buddha is the awakened one who leads one to Tathagata which also means all pervading

Buddha then is same in terms of conscious being

Only the mundane literal intellect makes a division and promoted by people with little or no experience and prefer to stick with beliefs

Truth is one
I'm sure my Hindu friend would agree with your statements.
I am probable sure that if you went technical with belief systems and religious ideas then the friendship would be distant which seems to be quite rampant with internet Buddhist’s

What’s important to understand is that the language context of texts are symbols of consciousness they are not about beliefs

In the upanishads it says that words only covey the quality of consciousness it sets out to manifest and when that quality is absorbed into being there is no more need for the words

But in western Buddhism words play the most defining role

Separation by belief and sect is important to some to feel they have the right teaching never mind about the consciousness

People without beliefs are more advanced in many ways

The language context holds the key attach consciousness or awareness to it and the solution is easy

Stick with words and scratchy translations run by monkeys and scholars then you will only feel more distant which you hide

You may actually learn more from him if there was humility openmindedness and honesty

I worked with Dalits in india and they greet each other with mam

Ask your Hindu friend what that means

Btw

I am not Hindu

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:34 pm
Most of these priests follow Amidism, and don't believe nibbāna is attainable anymore, and strive for birth in Sukhavāti,

[...]

THE MORE YOU KNOW!
A couple of quibbles...

Firstly, the aspirations of Pure Land Buddhists are usually directed toward the Happy Land (Sukhāvatī) rather than Happy Farting (Sukhavāti).
:toilet:

Secondly, I believe among Japanese Amidist priests, those of Shinran's Jōdo Shin school greatly outnumber those of Hōnen's Jōdo school. Of the two, it's only the priests in the latter minority school who can be said to be "striving for birth in Sukhāvatī" (i.e. by mantra recitations, petitionary prayers etc.). Those of the Jodo Shinshū believe there's nothing to strive for: their birth in Sukhāvatī is assured and so their religious life consists in saying thank you to Amida, not in asking him for anything.
You are quite right, bhante. There's an immature "hot air" joke to be made with Sukhāvatī --> Sukhavāti

THE MORE I KNOW!
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

thomaslaw
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by thomaslaw »

Germann wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:18 pm
Theravadins do not agree that Theravada is Hinayana, but they don’t do things that will stop it forever. Theravadins can draw the attention of the Mahayanists to the fact that Nibbana is a self-existing dharma (Nibbana exists independently, apart from any experience, after the death of Arahant - this is self-existence). Self-existent dharma is contrary to the Four Seals of Dharma in the Mahayana. Theravada cannot be considered Hinayana, because it is not the Teaching of the Buddha. If the Theravadins inform the Mahayanists of the self-existing dharma, the problem of the erroneous name "Hinayana" will be immediately resolved.
I think Theravada (Pali tradition) in history does not follow closely the middle way teachings indicated in SN 22.90 (= SA 262) and SN 12.15 (= SA 301), which are the origin for one of the major foundations regarding Dharma in the Mahayana tradition.
Cf. Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism (1995; second revised edition, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1999), pp. 32-40.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

santa100 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:31 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:Aha, ok, let me put it this way:

Only when hinayana monks were officially and socially allowed to get married and procreate like their mahayana counterparts, ...

Maybe just may be.
Oh yeah, you bet those Mahayana dudes reach "Nirvana" every night together with their wives, or spiritual partners, or whatever the heck they call them. It's just not the same Nibbana that the Buddha taught about in those "Hinayana" suttas. Maybe that's why they call others Hinayana afterall, you know, our vehicle's supposed to be big enough to carry not only oneself, but also one's karaoke, one's guitar, and... one's many wives!


Agreed.
The vehicle surely needs to be big enough, in that case :jumping:
.


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ayjaydee
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by ayjaydee »

Reading these posts has bee an hilarious lesson on the pitfalls of accepting the opinions and ideas of others without sufficient contemplation for oneself! Add to that the wonderful examples of "fitting angels on the head of a pin" rather than just observing the way things are. I just wish Ajaan Sumedho could read them all and do an analysis. Thank-you all!!

beanyan
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by beanyan »

Germann wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:18 pm
Theravadins do not agree that Theravada is Hinayana, but they don’t do things that will stop it forever. Theravadins can draw the attention of the Mahayanists to the fact that Nibbana is a self-existing dharma (Nibbana exists independently, apart from any experience, after the death of Arahant - this is self-existence). Self-existent dharma is contrary to the Four Seals of Dharma in the Mahayana. Theravada cannot be considered Hinayana, because it is not the Teaching of the Buddha. If the Theravadins inform the Mahayanists of the self-existing dharma, the problem of the erroneous name "Hinayana" will be immediately resolved.
Acknowledge that Hinayana believed in an atman. The Hinayanans are labelled by Mahayana as "self"ish because they believed in a self. If evwryone understood Hinayana as Buddhist that believed in a self then they would never call Theravada (aside from the Wat Phra Dhammakaya) as Hinayana. In fact then people would call Wat Phra Dhammakaya as Hinayana rather than Theravada.

polaris
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by polaris »

Hello,hello, if you bother to read this book called "How Theravada is Theravada" (an interesting thick book) you will find that historically Theravada is associated with the word Hinayana.
I wonder why Buddhists (many of them) are arguing over this matter. After all haven't they learned anything from Abhidhamma? Theravada or Hinayana are just words and names. Haven't they studied the ultimate reality in Abhidhamma?
They got lost along the way? Theravada or Hinayana is the teaching of the elder, more traditional, so let's just keep it simple.

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Dhammanando
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Dhammanando »

polaris wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:57 am
Hello,hello, if you bother to read this book called "How Theravada is Theravada" (an interesting thick book) you will find that historically Theravada is associated with the word Hinayana.
Are you referring to Arthid Sheravanichkul's paper in that book?

If so, then "historically" here just means "in Siam for a short period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries".

What Sheravanichkul reports happening is that some upper-class Siamese were educated at international schools by foreign teachers using English language textbooks. And so they learned their Buddhism from reading the likes of Rhys Davids, E.J. Thomas, Max Muller, etc. And from these writers they learned that there were two types of Buddhism, the Hīnayāna and the Mahāyāna and that the Buddhism of Siam was of the former type. And so they came to make this usage their own.

In Burma and Sri Lanka there was apparently a parallel trend among Buddhists who were educated at British colonial schools. Indeed in Sri Lanka the use of "Hīnayāna" seems to have continued for quite a long time among the native Buddhist intelligentsia. I recall in Iceland I used to know a very old Sinhalese lady who had been educated at a posh girls' school in Kandy. She had then lived most of her life abroad, working for the UN, and become cut off from her Sinhalese and Buddhist roots. At our first meeting she struggled to recall the "facts" about Buddhism that had been instilled in her as a girl, at one point asking:

"Reverend, do please remind me ... I'm always getting the two mixed up ... are we Sinhalese Buddhists the Hīnayāna or are we the Mahāyāna?"
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Pondera
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by Pondera »

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:34 pm
Most of these priests follow Amidism, and don't believe nibbāna is attainable anymore, and strive for birth in Sukhavāti,

[...]

THE MORE YOU KNOW!
A couple of quibbles...

Firstly, the aspirations of Pure Land Buddhists are usually directed toward the Happy Land (Sukhāvatī) rather than Happy Farting (Sukhavāti).
:toilet:

Secondly, I believe among Japanese Amidist priests, those of Shinran's Jōdo Shin school greatly outnumber those of Hōnen's Jōdo school. Of the two, it's only the priests in the latter minority school who can be said to be "striving for birth in Sukhāvatī" (i.e. by mantra recitations, petitionary prayers etc.). Those of the Jodo Shinshū believe there's nothing to strive for: their birth in Sukhāvatī is assured and so their religious life consists in saying thank you to Amida, not in asking him for anything.
I both enjoy the sound and smells of my own farts - to say nothing of the relief that letting out “vāti” brings - to say even less of the physical complications which might arise in the bowels if such “vāti” were not expelled.

My wife, alternatively, despises mainly the sound of my vāti and she would never say “Sukhavāti”.

Ironically, she holds her farts in all day; releasing them at night while she sleeps and while I attempt to sleep. The smell is akin to something like a rubber tire burning in Hell.

And she gets mad if I wake her up to chastise her. Paradoxically, she is in a win-win position. She never has to hear or smell me fart and she never has to hear or smell her own farts.

Farts, essentially, don’t exist in her world. Ultimately, stomach aches are a way of life for her.

To all the single men out there, Sukhavāti!!! Let the winds of your stomach flow freely through the cracks in your buttocks.
SteRo speaks as though he is pretending to give a lecture on General Relativity in Latin to an audience who speaks Japanese.

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robertk
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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by robertk »

viewtopic.php?t=12929
The Dīpavaṃsa:
Seventeen are the schismatic sects, and there is one that is not schismatic; together with that which is not schismatic, they are eighteen in all. That of the Theravādins, which is even like a great banyan tree, is the most excellent: the complete teaching of the Conqueror, free from omissions or admissions.


The Kathāvatthu commentary:
In that second century only two schools seceded from the Theravāda: the (1) Mahiṃsāsakas and the (2) Vajjiputtakas.

Now seceding from the Vajjiputtakas four other schools arose: the (3) Dhammuttariyas, the (4) Bhadrayānikas, the (5) Channāgarikas and the (6) Saṃmitiyas. Again, in that second century, seceding from the Mahiṃsāsakas, two schools arose: the (7) Sabbatthivādins and the (8) Dhammaguttikas. Then again, falling off from the Sabbatthivādins, arose the (9) Kassapikas. And the Kassapikas splitting up, the (10) Saṅkantikas came into existence. The Saṅkantikas splitting up, there arose the (11) Suttavādins. Thus, falling off from the Theravādins, arose these eleven schools. These together with the Theravādins were twelve.


Also, the 12th century northern Indian author Daśabalaśrīmitra refers to the Sthaviras and quotes extensively from the Vimuttimagga which he states is the "Āgama of the Ārya-Sthavira-nikāya." And the 19th century Tibetan author Jamgön Kongtrül also mentions the Sthaviras by name and, relying on Vinītadeva's Nikāyabhedopadeśasaṃgraha, also states that the "Jetavanīyas, Abhayagirikas, and Mahāvihārins are the [three] Sthaviras."

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Re: What needs to be done so that Theravada is never called Hinayana

Post by mikenz66 »

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:20 am
What Sheravanichkul reports happening is that some upper-class Siamese were educated at international schools by foreign teachers using English language textbooks. ...
Presumably this also explains why one can find odd English translations at Thai Wats in the West (and sometimes in Thailand), describing the Vihara as a "temple", and describing chanting as "praying". :thinking:

:heart:
Mike

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