Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:04 pm
SteRo wrote:There are certainly serious practitioners and teachers within that organization. Chogyam Trungpa is revered by many as a great teacher which might be the case if one separates livelyhood/conduct from teaching skills. If one rejects such a separation categorically then that is so
Well, there's no shortage of "teachers" like those in this day and age, who can teach all the ins and outs of virtuous conducts, while still breaking the Five Precepts. How we miss the good old days when the Teacher didn't just teach with His tongue, but also with His BODY.
Well in some sense Chogyam Trungpa and the like taught with their BODY, too. Just not in the sense commonly expected.

Disciple
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by Disciple »

In jodo shinshu there are zero precepts. One is allowed to get married, eat meat, and drink alcohol. This is the most widely practiced mahayana sect in Japan.

santa100
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:Well in some sense Chogyam Trungpa and the like taught with their BODY, too. Just not in the sense commonly expected.
Of course, Mara is "teaching" with his BODY every breathing moment to those who's willing to be his disciples.

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seeker242
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by seeker242 »

Mahayana is much too broad of a category to say "monks are allowed to do..." anything. Some are celibate, some aren't. Some handle money, some don't. Some eat meat, some don't.

SteRo
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:02 pm
SteRo wrote:Well in some sense Chogyam Trungpa and the like taught with their BODY, too. Just not in the sense commonly expected.
Of course, Mara is "teaching" with his BODY every breathing moment to those who's willing to be his disciples.
Not necessarily. You can learn from bright and dark equally. And some teachers even use dark to teach the bright. Bright and dark are mutually dependent.

santa100
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:35 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:02 pm
SteRo wrote:Well in some sense Chogyam Trungpa and the like taught with their BODY, too. Just not in the sense commonly expected.
Of course, Mara is "teaching" with his BODY every breathing moment to those who's willing to be his disciples.
Not necessarily. You can learn from bright and dark equally. And some teachers even use dark to teach the bright. Bright and dark are mutually dependent.
But you don't need a teacher to teach you dark qualities. You already learn plenty of dark qualities from everyone around you. And that's exactly why I said many times I have a lot more respect for Judo masters than the Dhamma masters of our time. At least the Judo guy has to put the money where the mouth is. He earns his students' respect thru his own sweat and even blood. How about Dhamma teachers like Chogyam Trungpa? Doing orgies is considered doing the Buddha's teaching according to some people, just not in the sense commonly expected!

SteRo
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:05 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:35 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:02 pm

Of course, Mara is "teaching" with his BODY every breathing moment to those who's willing to be his disciples.
Not necessarily. You can learn from bright and dark equally. And some teachers even use dark to teach the bright. Bright and dark are mutually dependent.
But you don't need a teacher to teach you dark qualities. You already learn plenty of dark qualities from everyone around you. And that's exactly why I said many times I have a lot more respect for Judo masters than the Dhamma masters of our time. At least the Judo guy has to put the money where the mouth is. For Dhamma teachers like Chogyam Trungpa? Doing orgies is considered doing the Buddha's teaching according to some people, just not in the sense commonly expected!
You did not get my words. I said "some teachers even use dark to teach the bright" which means through behaving dark they teach the consequences of behaving dark through which they actually teach the bright. So in a way that is selfless teaching because of taking the consequences for the purpose of teaching the bright.

santa100
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:09 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:05 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:35 pm


Not necessarily. You can learn from bright and dark equally. And some teachers even use dark to teach the bright. Bright and dark are mutually dependent.
But you don't need a teacher to teach you dark qualities. You already learn plenty of dark qualities from everyone around you. And that's exactly why I said many times I have a lot more respect for Judo masters than the Dhamma masters of our time. At least the Judo guy has to put the money where the mouth is. For Dhamma teachers like Chogyam Trungpa? Doing orgies is considered doing the Buddha's teaching according to some people, just not in the sense commonly expected!
You did not get my words. I said "some teachers even use dark to teach the bright" which means through behaving dark they teach the consequences of behaving dark through which they actually teach the bright.
And you completely miss my point, you don't need a Dhamma teacher to do that. You already had plenty of that kind of lesson from all around you. By the way, drinking alcolhol, sex with multiple partners, doing orgies to teach students about lust is the most stupid excuse I've ever heard. Unfortunately there's no shortage of gullible people who still buy that crap from those scam artists.

SteRo
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:12 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:09 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:05 pm

But you don't need a teacher to teach you dark qualities. You already learn plenty of dark qualities from everyone around you. And that's exactly why I said many times I have a lot more respect for Judo masters than the Dhamma masters of our time. At least the Judo guy has to put the money where the mouth is. For Dhamma teachers like Chogyam Trungpa? Doing orgies is considered doing the Buddha's teaching according to some people, just not in the sense commonly expected!
You did not get my words. I said "some teachers even use dark to teach the bright" which means through behaving dark they teach the consequences of behaving dark through which they actually teach the bright.
And you completely miss my point, you don't need a Dhamma teacher to do that. You already had plenty of that kind of lesson from all around you. By the way, drinking alcolhol, sex with multiple partners, doing orgies to teach students about lust is the most stupid excuse I've ever heard. Unfortunately there's no shortage of gullible people who still buy that crap from those scam artists.
i think it's more impressive if it's demonstrated by a teacher to whom one has a special relationship. Of course there might be the fault on the side of the teacher's students who lack insight to not interprete the drama appropriately. But hey ... actually I am not involved in such settings. i am just trying to look at it from an unbiased perspective ... or biased towards finding something positive in what appears negative at first glance :shrug:

santa100
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Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:32 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:12 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:09 pm


You did not get my words. I said "some teachers even use dark to teach the bright" which means through behaving dark they teach the consequences of behaving dark through which they actually teach the bright.
And you completely miss my point, you don't need a Dhamma teacher to do that. You already had plenty of that kind of lesson from all around you. By the way, drinking alcolhol, sex with multiple partners, doing orgies to teach students about lust is the most stupid excuse I've ever heard. Unfortunately there's no shortage of gullible people who still buy that crap from those scam artists.
i think it's more impressive if it's demonstrated by a teacher to whom one has a special relationship. Of course there might be the fault on the side of the teacher's students who lack insight to not interprete the drama appropriately. But hey ... actually I am not involved in such settings. i am just trying to look at it from an unbiased perspective ... or biased towards finding something positive in what appears negative at first glance :shrug:
If a teacher has a problem keeping his private organ inside his pants, then one must be exceedingly dumb to continue to look up to him using the reasons highlighted above. Oh wait, maybe your're right after all, cuz for a Shambala follower, everything is just an illusion, a mirage, an appearance, so if he sticks his private part up yours, that also is just an illusion, nothing is real!

SteRo
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:32 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:12 pm

And you completely miss my point, you don't need a Dhamma teacher to do that. You already had plenty of that kind of lesson from all around you. By the way, drinking alcolhol, sex with multiple partners, doing orgies to teach students about lust is the most stupid excuse I've ever heard. Unfortunately there's no shortage of gullible people who still buy that crap from those scam artists.
i think it's more impressive if it's demonstrated by a teacher to whom one has a special relationship. Of course there might be the fault on the side of the teacher's students who lack insight to not interprete the drama appropriately. But hey ... actually I am not involved in such settings. i am just trying to look at it from an unbiased perspective ... or biased towards finding something positive in what appears negative at first glance :shrug:
If a teacher has a problem keeping his private organ inside his pants, then one must be exceedingly dumb to continue to look up to him thru excuses like the highlighted parts above.
if he gives good teachings one does not have to bother about excuses
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Oh wait, maybe your're right after all, cuz for a Mahayanist like you, everything is just an illusion, a mirage, an appearance, so if he sticks his private part up yours, that also is just an illusion, nothing is real!
You don't get it. Nevermind, It is not that important.

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:50 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:32 pm


i think it's more impressive if it's demonstrated by a teacher to whom one has a special relationship. Of course there might be the fault on the side of the teacher's students who lack insight to not interprete the drama appropriately. But hey ... actually I am not involved in such settings. i am just trying to look at it from an unbiased perspective ... or biased towards finding something positive in what appears negative at first glance :shrug:
If a teacher has a problem keeping his private organ inside his pants, then one must be exceedingly dumb to continue to look up to him thru excuses like the highlighted parts above.
if he gives good teachings one does not have to bother about excuses
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Oh wait, maybe your're right after all, cuz for a Mahayanist like you, everything is just an illusion, a mirage, an appearance, so if he sticks his private part up yours, that also is just an illusion, nothing is real!
You don't get it. Nevermind, It is not that important.
Well, you don't have to bother, but I do. There're a bunch of words for teachers who are not able to control their own lust while still getting paid preaching about virtues: shamelessness, hypocrisy, parasitic, etc. Oh well, nevermind. None of those things seem to bother you anyway. If you find you can learn much better with your teacher's junk up yours, then hey, by all means, knock yourself out.

SteRo
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:00 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:50 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm

If a teacher has a problem keeping his private organ inside his pants, then one must be exceedingly dumb to continue to look up to him thru excuses like the highlighted parts above.
if he gives good teachings one does not have to bother about excuses
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Oh wait, maybe your're right after all, cuz for a Mahayanist like you, everything is just an illusion, a mirage, an appearance, so if he sticks his private part up yours, that also is just an illusion, nothing is real!
You don't get it. Nevermind, It is not that important.
Well, you don't have to bother, but I do. There're a bunch of words for teachers who are not able to control their own lust while still getting paid preaching about virtues: shamelessness, hypocrisy, parasitic, etc. Oh well, nevermind. None of those things seem to bother you anyway.
I rely on you to convey your enlightenment to the world.

santa100
Posts: 4102
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by santa100 »

SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:03 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:00 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:50 pm

if he gives good teachings one does not have to bother about excuses


You don't get it. Nevermind, It is not that important.
Well, you don't have to bother, but I do. There're a bunch of words for teachers who are not able to control their own lust while still getting paid preaching about virtues: shamelessness, hypocrisy, parasitic, etc. Oh well, nevermind. None of those things seem to bother you anyway.
I rely on you to convey your enlightenment to the world.
Been trying to do that all along. But I can't convey my enlightenment to someone who finds it much better to learn from a teacher who sticks his junk up his.

SteRo
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am

Re: Are Mahayana monks allowed to marry?

Post by SteRo »

santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:05 pm
SteRo wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:03 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:00 pm

Well, you don't have to bother, but I do. There're a bunch of words for teachers who are not able to control their own lust while still getting paid preaching about virtues: shamelessness, hypocrisy, parasitic, etc. Oh well, nevermind. None of those things seem to bother you anyway.
I rely on you to convey your enlightenment to the world.
Been trying to do that all along. But I can't convey my enlightenment to someone who finds it much better to learn from a teacher who sticks his junk up his.
just keep delighting the world with the enlightenment you convey!

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