non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:28 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:46 pm
...
Until I’m an Arahant there will be formations, yes.
While alive and outside of meditation formations arise, yes. Nevertheless there is a difference between 'coursing in formations' and 'not coursing in formations' and the latter is not to "take apart the raft before reaching the far shore".
Arahants have formations but they are undefiled formations.
Still arahants have formations arising from formative ignorance. But these are not defiled by disruptive ignorance which is why coursing in formations arising from formative ignorance has ceased.

Since this is the "connection to other paths" section we can have a free conversation about that.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:28 am
Nibbana is described as "sabbasaṅkhārasamatho: calming of all formations" rather than "sabbasaṅkhārakkhayo: destruction of formations". Lol...you two are debating over two imaginary ideas, it seems. You think a Buddha does not have ayu, kaya, vaci & citta sankhara? :roll: :)
If you used english words we might talk about that.

BTW an arahant's nibbana is not necessarily the goal of the Eightfold Path. It depends upon lineage.

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Sam Vara
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:30 am

SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:38 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:20 am
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:09 am


This is what the Buddha said.

The topic however was the assertion that "arahants declare final knowledge all the time".

But neither has an arahant declared final knowledge here nor is it known to whom the Buddha refered with 'gentlemen'.
I think that the context makes it quite clear that the two Venerables, Khema and Sumana, were declaring final knowledge. Otherwise, the Buddha would not have approved of their words and used the term evam: thus, or this is how. What would the evam otherwise refer to? "Gentlemen" is here a translation of kulaputtā, which fits these brahmins.
I know that there is no end to speculations and that your thirst of discursiveness is insatiable.
No, it's readily satiated by sound argument.
Still that does not support "arahants declare final knowledge all the time".
Of course not! Let me guess: there were times when those arahants were eating, defecating, or sleeping, and so there were times when they stopped declaring! :jumping:

Again, look at what is actually being said. I never said that I was supporting the claim that "arahants declare final knowledge all the time". (That was somebody else, no?) You said:
I never came across such a declaration in the suttas.
.

After respectfully suggesting I could help, I did so by providing you with some quotes that depict such declarations.
If monks seek affirmation in the presence of the Buddha then that also does not shed a good light on their attainment...etc, etc.
Thanks for sharing, but that's not a topic I'm interested in.

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DooDoot
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:17 pm

SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
Still arahants have formations arising from formative ignorance.
No. Arahants have formations so they can breath, live & speak. If a Buddha has no mental formations, how can he teach? How can he exercise compassion? For a Mahayana, which claims to have compassion, your ideas are very confusing & annihilationist.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
But these are not defiled by disruptive ignorance which is why coursing in formations arising from formative ignorance has ceased.
No. The Buddha did not teach the above stuff. The Buddha did not teach the stuff Namdrol (Malcolm) used to obsessively post on E-Sangha about "not coursing in aggregates". Aggregates themselves are EMPTINESS. Discerning an aggregate as an "aggregate" means discerning the aggregate as not a self. The Buddha did not teach non-conceptuality. Since non-conceptuality can never be permanent, it cannot represent true freedom or liberation. That is why Gotama rejected non-conceptuality when rejecting his two teachers.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
Since this is the "connection to other paths" section we can have a free conversation about that.
So which path teaches the stuff being posted?
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
If you used english words we might talk about that.
Sorry but the Buddha taught in a language similar to Pali. The Pali language preserves the accuracy of the meaning of the words. When the Buddha described Nibbana, he said "sankhara is calmed" and "craving is destroyed". He did not say sankhara is destroyed. He did not say this because the destruction of sankhara is a dysfunctional unconscious state.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
BTW an arahant's nibbana is not necessarily the goal of the Eightfold Path. It depends upon lineage.
Sorry but the Buddha didn't teach Mahayana, which appears based on Theravada Jataka, which the Buddha didn't teach either. The only goal of the Noble Eightfold Path is Nibbana. The Buddha called the the Noble Eightfold Path the path that ends suffering (dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā). Therefore, its only purpose is the end of suffering or Nibbana.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm, edited 6 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Ceisiwr » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:27 pm

SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:26 pm
SteRo


A beneficial fabrication, yes. In contrast philosophical speculations are harmful fabrications.
My point entirely.
Then I do not understand why you are coursing in philosophical speculations about empty words. Coursing in formations will block progress on the path. In that sense it is harmful. It is perpetuation of self-conditioning.


Good job I’m not speculating then ;)
“Lust is a maker of signs. Aversion is a maker of signs. Delusion is a maker of signs.” MN 43

"Rooted in desire, friends, are all phenomena; originating in attention, are all phenomena”
— A. v. 106

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DooDoot
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:50 pm

SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 am
Coursing in formations will block progress on the path. In that sense it is harmful. It is perpetuation of self-conditioning.
In the Anapanasati sutta, the Buddha said to experience the kaya-sankhara and citta-sankhara. Therefore, it appears the Buddha did not teach what you posted above.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SteRo
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:17 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
Still arahants have formations arising from formative ignorance.
No. ...
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
But these are not defiled by disruptive ignorance which is why coursing in formations arising from formative ignorance has ceased.
No. ...
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
If you used english words we might talk about that.
Sorry but the Buddha taught in a language similar to Pali. ...
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:44 am
BTW an arahant's nibbana is not necessarily the goal of the Eightfold Path. It depends upon lineage.
Sorry but the Buddha didn't teach Mahayana, ...
Ok, it seems that conversation is complete.

SteRo
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:50 pm
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 am
Coursing in formations will block progress on the path. In that sense it is harmful. It is perpetuation of self-conditioning.
In the Anapanasati sutta, the Buddha said to experience the kaya-sankhara and citta-sankhara. Therefore, it appears the Buddha did not teach what you posted above.
Well he taught DO and that's been what I have referred to with "coursing in formations"

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DooDoot
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 am

SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:04 pm
Well he taught DO and that's been what I have referred to with "coursing in formations"
No. He taught a D.O. where certain phenomena (such as sankhara, consciousness, mind-body, sense bases & contact) are contaminated by ignorance and other phenomena (such as craving, attachment, becoming, birth & death) are manifestations of ignorance. 'Sankhara' in D.O. is a phenomena contaminated by ignorance and subsequently cleansed of ignorance. The Buddha taught the sankhara in D.O. are kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, which are breathing, thought, perception & feeling. A Buddha still has ayu, kaya, vaci & citta sankhara. This is why there are sutta where the Buddha himself says he practises Anapanasati, where the Buddha experiences kaya & citta sankhara.
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:01 pm
Ok, it seems that conversation is complete.
No. Its not complete. The Buddha said:
So, Ānanda, treat me as a friend, not as an enemy. That will be for your lasting welfare and happiness.

I shall not mollycoddle you like a potter with their damp, unfired pots. I shall speak, pushing you again and again, pressing you again and again. The core will stand the test.

That is what the Buddha said.

MN 122
The Buddha taught three phenomena result in sense contact: (i) sense organ; (ii) sense object; and (iii) sense consciousness. Each of these phenomena are naturally void of self. Therefore, the Buddha did not teach either of these three phenomena are "subject". The Buddha taught about "objects" without "subjects". The Buddha did not teach "subject- object" and the resultant Hindu-cum-Mahayana delusion called "non-duality". The Buddha taught about void (selfless) objects without any subject. Nama-rupa does not mean "subject-object". Since there are mental objects, obviously "rupa" does not refer to "mental objects". :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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SDC
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 am
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:01 pm
Ok, it seems that conversation is complete.
No. Its not complete. The Buddha said:
So, Ānanda, treat me as a friend, not as an enemy. That will be for your lasting welfare and happiness.

I shall not mollycoddle you like a potter with their damp, unfired pots. I shall speak, pushing you again and again, pressing you again and again. The core will stand the test.
2j of the ToS doesn't have your back, DD:
Pressuring members to engage, despite them having already explicitly declined such engagement in the current topic
So tread lightly.

SteRo
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SteRo » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 am
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:04 pm
Well he taught DO and that's been what I have referred to with "coursing in formations"
No. ....
SteRo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:01 pm
Ok, it seems that conversation is complete.
No. ...
Conversation complete.

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