non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

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drun
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non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by drun » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Wed May 23, 2012 10:46 pm
From Bhante Sujato’s blog-page “Nibbāna is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
  • “I’ve just read yet another assertion that tries to slip a ‘cosmic consciousness’ Nibbana into the Suttas. In these kinds of arguments the same mistakes are made again and again, and you should beware of them.

    One popular argument is based on the famous passage:
    • viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ
      ‘Consciousness non-manifest, infinte, radiant all around.’
    This is sometimes said to be a term for Nibbana, although since it is an obscure poetic passage of dubious meaning we should not infer any major conclusions from it.

    This obscure passage has been often exalted to the revelation of the highest teachings of Nibbana. One of the arguments one hears is that viññāṇa normally means ‘separative consciousness’, and that this has been revalued to refer to an infinite awareness. This argument is wrong. ...”
It is not obscure at all. It seems obscure to theravadin schools. most of them, who got all wrong the Buddha teaching as He was teaching Anatta, no.self doctrine. Buddha never, ever taught any theory od no self. Is simply stupid to think that a Sramana, not only Shakyamuni, seaching for the Immortal state, (amata) would go around teaching the nihilism.
Buddha was using a tipical Via Negativa style, apofatic teaching, like 'na me so atta'
Theravadin shools holds that they have the original teaching but actually is quite terrible wrong on this matter of self or not self
Is too difficult here to show why of this great missunderstanding, but I can assure, it is like that.
Buddha was already accused to be ninhilistic and he replays to that, in some passage of Pali canonic texts. So, viññanam anidassanam is simply the buddhavinnana, the awareness nirvanic, is cetovimutti, and Nibbana nana (Nirvana Jnana) . Anatta is just one of the upaya used for teaching.
Sorry to be quite direct on this, but it's time to say these things clearly.
greetings
Dan

chownah
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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by chownah » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:57 pm

As nearly as I can tell the theravada scriptures do not show the buddha being nihilistic concerning self....nihilism means that something that exists is destroyed.....in my understanding the buddha teaches that whatever ones takes to be self is done through ignorance of the way things really are and whatever one takes as self does not exist as self so it can not be destroyed as self because it does not have an existence as self.

Summary: if something does not exist then it can not be destroyed....thus whatever one takes as self does not exist as self so it can not be destroyed as self.....I guess....don't know for sure.....

chownah

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Aloka
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Aloka » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:18 pm

.

I'm not an expert on this myself, but there's an interesting chapter ( page 131, Ch.8) with the title "Unsupported and Unsupportive Consciousness" in the book "The Island- An Anthology of the Buddha’s Teachings on Nibbana" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro. It begins :

ONE OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THE BUDDHA CHARACTERIZED the quality of awareness was to present it as a form of consciousness (viññana). This represents a unique usage of the term – customarily ‘vinnana’ only refers to the conditioned activity of the six senses – however, we also find that the Buddha gives us some adjectives with which to describe it, when the term is used in this unique way:
‘viññanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham’ – ‘consciousness that is signless, boundless, all-luminous,’ is one translation of this expression.

It almost goes without saying that there is controversy as to the precise meaning of this enigmatic phrase (it appears in only a couple of places in the Canon: M 49.25 & D 11.85). However, the constellation of meanings of the individual words is small enough to give us a reasonably clear idea of what the Buddha was pointing at.

Firstly, we must assume that he is using ‘viññana’ in a broader way than it usually is meant. The Buddha avoided the nit-picking pedantry of many philosophers contemporary with him and opted for a more broad-brush, colloquial style,
geared to particular listeners in a language which they could understand (see after §1.11). Thus ‘viññana’ here can be asssumed to mean ‘knowing’ but not the partial, fragmented, discriminative (vi-) knowing (-ñana) which the word usually
implies. Instead it must mean a knowing of a primordial, transcendent nature, otherwise the passage which contains it would be self-contradictory.

Secondly, ‘anidassanaµ’ is a fairly straightforward word which means (a-)
‘not, non-, without’ (-nidassanam) ‘indicative, visible, manifestative,’ i.e. invisible,empty, featureless, unmanifest; ‘anantam’ is also a straightforward term, meaning ‘infinite’ or ‘limitless.’ The final phrase, ‘sabbato pabham’ is a little trickier.

Continues at the bottom of page 131 at the link:

https://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/up ... e_2015.pdf
:anjali:

SteRo
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by SteRo » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:37 pm

What's the use of such kind of speculations? There seems to be that thirst to grasp something pure, something beyond, to appropriate it through giving a name. 'it is this' it is 'I know it', 'it is mine', 'I am it'. But nothing can be found, neither 'it' nor 'I'.

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:00 pm

drun wrote:
Bhante Sujato wrote: I’ve just read yet another assertion that tries to slip a ‘cosmic consciousness’ Nibbana into the Suttas. In these kinds of arguments the same mistakes are made again and again, and you should beware of them.
Sujato is trying to slip annihilation into the scriptures

(beware of that)

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:04 pm

drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
So, viññanam anidassanam is simply the buddhavinnana, the awareness nirvanic, is cetovimutti, and Nibbana nana (Nirvana Jnana)
Viññanam anidassanam appears to be merely a temporary state and therefore not Nibbana. There are many are arguments supporting this conclusion, such as:

1. This verse is found in two suttas to Brahma Gods (MN 49) and Brahmins (DN 11). In each sutta, none of the listeners attains any type of enlightenment; not even stream-entry. It follows the teachings appears merely something taught in the language of Brahmanism for that specific audience.

2. Evidence the passage is in the language of Brahmanism is found in the use of the term "nama-rupa". In Buddhism, the term "rupa" refers to the four elements. The Buddhist suttas (such as MN 9; SN 12.2) define nama-rupa as feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and the form composed of the four elements. Yet, in this passage about "viññanam anidassanam" it is 1st said the four elements do not cease without remainder but then the passage later says nama-rupa ceases (asesaṃ uparujjhati). Therefore, when the passage later says "nama-rupa" ceases, this does not refer to the Buddhist "rupa" of the four elements but the Brahmanist meaning of nama-rupa as 'naming-forms'. In other words, what ceases in viññanam anidassanam are the conceptual discriminations or naming of forms as "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly", etc. This is not Buddhist enlightenment. This is not Nirvana. Nirvana is the permanent ceasing (asesavirāganirodhā) of greed, hatred & delusion. Nirvana is not the ceasing (asesaṃ uparujjhati) of conceptual discriminations of "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly", etc

3. In Buddhism, consciousness & nama-rupa arise & cease together, as described in many suttas, such as MN 9, SN 12.67, etc. Therefore, there cannot be a consciousness existing in which nama-rupa has ceased. This shows the words 'nama-rupa' in MN 49 & DN 11 refer to the Brahmanistic "naming-forms" rather than the Buddhist "mentality-materiality".

4. The word "uparujjhati", with the prefix "upa", does not appear to refer to a permanent cessation. If it is not permanent, it is not Nirvana.

5. Viññanam anidassanam cannot be the Buddhavinnana because the Buddha often said things were "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly".
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
Sorry to be quite direct on this, but it's time to say these things clearly.
Despite your boldness based on very superficial grounds, imo, your argument seems definitely wrong. :smile:
Aloka wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:18 pm
I'm not an expert on this myself...
Its OK. Even good monks such as Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro appear to get this wrong. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by drun » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:57 pm
As nearly as I can tell the theravada scriptures do not show the buddha being nihilistic concerning self....nihilism means that something that exists is destroyed.....in my understanding the buddha teaches that whatever ones takes to be self is done through ignorance of the way things really are and whatever one takes as self does not exist as self so it can not be destroyed as self because it does not have an existence as self.

Summary: if something does not exist then it can not be destroyed....thus whatever one takes as self does not exist as self so it can not be destroyed as self.....I guess....don't know for sure.....

chownah
That is the sofictic way that a lot of theravadin use to go around the matter. Ridicolous. Buddha was not a philosopher. He was a Buddha, he shows the way to reach Brahma as well, in one particular Sutta. Nihilism is not about words game, nihilism means that nothing exist, doesn't matter how you reach that conclusion, in some elegant sophistic way, the one you just proposed, or just un straight way. Is this clear? (I'm not english mother language)
"The gates of the Immortal are opened" Buddha said. The irony behind all this, is that Theravada schools , in order to preserve their own identity (!), goes on with this nonsense of the non- exixtence of the Self, the Buddha never taught.

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:43 pm

"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta

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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:46 pm

drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm
He was a Buddha, he shows the way to reach Brahma as well, in one particular Sutta.
Yes. This shows the Buddha did not only teach about Nirvana. Brahma is not Nirvana.
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm
this nonsense of the non- exixtence of the Self, the Buddha never taught.
The Buddha taught the non- exixtence of the Self, as follows:
Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
all things are not-self.
Sabbe dhammā anattā.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato
All things are not-self.
sabbe dhammā anattā

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.90/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:46 pm

drun wrote:
chownah wrote: Summary: if something does not exist then it can not be destroyed....
word games
indeed
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:48 pm

DooDoot wrote: The Buddha taught the nonexistence of the Self, as follows:

not-self
not-self is different than the nonexistence of the self

Ananda Sutta

drun
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by drun » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:04 pm
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
So, viññanam anidassanam is simply the buddhavinnana, the awareness nirvanic, is cetovimutti, and Nibbana nana (Nirvana Jnana)
Viññanam anidassanam appears to be merely a temporary state and therefore not Nibbana. There are many are arguments supporting this conclusion, such as:

1. This verse is found in two suttas to Brahma Gods (MN 49) and Brahmins (DN 11). In each sutta, none of the listeners attains any type of enlightenment; not even stream-entry. It follows the teachings appears merely something taught in the language of Brahmanism for that specific audience.

2. Evidence the passage is in the language of Brahmanism is found in the use of the term "nama-rupa". In Buddhism, the term "rupa" refers to the four elements. The Buddhist suttas (such as MN 9; SN 12.2) define nama-rupa as feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention and the form composed of the four elements. Yet, in this passage about "viññanam anidassanam" it is 1st said the four elements do not cease without remainder but then the passage later says nama-rupa ceases (asesaṃ uparujjhati). Therefore, when the passage later says "nama-rupa" ceases, this does not refer to the Buddhist "rupa" of the four elements but the Brahmanist meaning of nama-rupa as 'naming-forms'. In other words, what ceases in viññanam anidassanam are the conceptual discriminations or naming of forms as "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly", etc. This is not Buddhist enlightenment. This is not Nirvana. Nirvana is the permanent ceasing (asesavirāganirodhā) of greed, hatred & delusion. Nirvana is not the ceasing (asesaṃ uparujjhati) of conceptual discriminations of "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly", etc

3. In Buddhism, consciousness & nama-rupa arise & cease together, as described in many suttas, such as MN 9, SN 12.67, etc. Therefore, there cannot be a consciousness existing in which nama-rupa has ceased. This shows the words 'nama-rupa' in MN 49 & DN 11 refer to the Brahmanistic "naming-forms" rather than the Buddhist "mentality-materiality".

4. The word "uparujjhati", with the prefix "upa", does not appear to refer to a permanent cessation. If it is not permanent, it is not Nirvana.




5. Viññanam anidassanam cannot be the Buddhavinnana because the Buddha often said things were "long, short, fair, foul, beautiful, ugly".
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
Sorry to be quite direct on this, but it's time to say these things clearly.
Despite your boldness based on very superficial grounds, imo, your argument seems definitely wrong. :smile:
Aloka wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:18 pm
I'm not an expert on this myself...
Its OK. Even good monks such as Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro appear to get this wrong. :smile:

I think that your comment, slightly offensive around my person, is out of the rules of this forum.
By the way, with great patience, you can read in Kevaddha Sutta, 'vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato phabam' ( sorry no diacritics), the 'place' where all the four elements are completely annihilated.
This consciousness is synonim of Nirvana, from the Awakened views, as also Buddhaghosa declares. And there are many other names for it, that goes beyond words by the way, according with Buddha teaching. Vi-jnana and Jnana, dualistic and not dualistic consciousness. 2) boldness: you say this is not Nirvana, do you know what is NIRVANA, then ?

(If you want to write about my person, and my supposed by you, superficial grounds, you're loosing times here.)

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Re: non theravada ideas about vinnanam dassana

Post by drun » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:46 pm
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm
He was a Buddha, he shows the way to reach Brahma as well, in one particular Sutta.
Yes. This shows the Buddha did not only teach about Nirvana. Brahma is not Nirvana.
drun wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm
this nonsense of the non- exixtence of the Self, the Buddha never taught.
The Buddha taught the non- exixtence of the Self, as follows:
Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
all things are not-self.
Sabbe dhammā anattā.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato
All things are not-self.
sabbe dhammā anattā

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.90/en/sujato
Sabbe dhammā anattā. Yes all things are exactly not the self indeed. Na me so atta, also appears hundreds times in the sutta. I read all possible translated sutta, a part from Abhidarma and Vinaya pitaka. There's not a single step where Buddha say I'm teaching the non exixtence of the Self.
But the ordinary self, ordinary feelings are not the self, obviously. a Sramana goes n to the forest, and after years of meditation discover the Truth.
In Brahmajala sutta among the schools Buddha is examining there are also, if I remember well, seven school that in different ways declare the non existence od the self. An Buddha himself had to clearifed that he was bringing people to the splendot, to the light, nont to darkness of nihilism.
I can show you where if you like

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Aloka
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Aloka » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:26 pm

drun wrote: An Buddha himself had to clearifed that he was bringing people to the splendot
drun wrote:I can show you where if you like
Erm...what's a "splendot" ? .....and where can I find one ?


:reading:


.

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Aloka
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Aloka » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:10 pm

Double post deleted.
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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