Consciousness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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freedom
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Consciousness

Post by freedom » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:21 pm

Consciousness according to a physicist...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZO1ykipj0
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

daveblack
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Re: Consciousness

Post by daveblack » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:31 am

He's basically just arguing for the Hindu World-Soul style Atman.

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:26 am

about soul, many views exist, which is correct?


you will only be troubled, trying to answer the issue


this is a different approach than above

form
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Re: Consciousness

Post by form » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:56 am

Is there conditioned persons in the DO?

Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am

form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes

form
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Re: Consciousness

Post by form » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:15 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am
form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes
That consciousness is it the same as the consciousness that appears in DO?

alfa
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Location: India

Re: Consciousness

Post by alfa » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:16 am

form wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:15 am
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am
form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes
That consciousness is it the same as the consciousness that appears in DO?
DO=conditioned consciousness. Nirvana=Unconditioned consciousness.

form
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Re: Consciousness

Post by form » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:19 am

alfa wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:16 am
form wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:15 am
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am


yes
That consciousness is it the same as the consciousness that appears in DO?
DO=conditioned consciousness. Nirvana=Unconditioned consciousness.
Thank u.

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:22 am

form wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes
That consciousness is it the same as the consciousness that appears in DO?
it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising

Consciousness without feature

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

confusedlayman
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Re: Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:23 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:01 am
form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes
are you sure its unconditioned?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness

Post by cappuccino » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:26 am

confusedlayman wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
form wrote: Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
yes
are you sure its unconditioned?
it would have to be

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Alīno
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Re: Consciousness

Post by Alīno » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:08 am

form wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2526 6:22 am
Is there conditioned persons in the DO?

Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
There is no individual consciousness in Unconditioned Dhamma. Actualy Ian not even sure that we can speak about consciousness... but rather about Purity of that element.

Purity is the only quality it have, it's pure from all, that's why all becomes manifest on it's surface. Buddha described Nibbana only in negative form : there is no this and no that...

Actualy the Unconditioned element is everywhere, that why awakening can happen at any time. Here some examples of Unconditioned:
- silence : there is no sound without silence
- stability : there is no movement without stability
- space : there is no forms without space
- beach : there is no vawes without beach
- white paper : there is no letters without white paper
- peace : there is no agitation without initial peace
- hole: without the hole in the middle there is no donut
- zero : without 0 there is no 1, but with cessation of numbers zero don't disappear nor it influenced by this absense of numbers...

But doest it mean that there is different zeros for number 1 and number 999? Doest it mean that the white paper belongs to this or that word? Does the silence is conditioned by the sound? After the end of the sound only the sound ceases, silence can not cease... In the same way after cessation of dukkha only dukkha that ceases, absense of dukkha can not cease... Thats why we need to understand what is dukkha, to be able to lay down all manifestations of dukkha...

Nibbana element can be seen in all what is seen, heared, sensed. And direct realisation of that silence, space, peace, light, stability, purity in our minds liberate us from the dukkha of conditioned...

So yes Nibbana manifest itself as consciousness by its purity, but no Nibbana is not consciousness, rather consciousness (awareness, sati) is a bridge between Conditioned and Unconditioned... That's why sati is so important, and called by Buddha as "direct path to realisation", there is no more direct way to the other shore, that's why even Arahants still practicing sati, because it's a natural expression of their liberation, and that's why many practitioners say that Nibbana is consciousness... but I would say that it's not consciousness itself, but the consciousness is a by-product of that Unconditioned Purity...
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

form
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Re: Consciousness

Post by form » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:22 am

Thanks for all the sharing.

confusedlayman
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Re: Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:39 am

Alīno wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:08 am
form wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2526 6:22 am
Is there conditioned persons in the DO?

Is there still consciousness in post nibanna?
There is no individual consciousness in Unconditioned Dhamma. Actualy Ian not even sure that we can speak about consciousness... but rather about Purity of that element.

Purity is the only quality it have, it's pure from all, that's why all becomes manifest on it's surface. Buddha described Nibbana only in negative form : there is no this and no that...

Actualy the Unconditioned element is everywhere, that why awakening can happen at any time. Here some examples of Unconditioned:
- silence : there is no sound without silence
- stability : there is no movement without stability
- space : there is no forms without space
- beach : there is no vawes without beach
- white paper : there is no letters without white paper
- peace : there is no agitation without initial peace
- hole: without the hole in the middle there is no donut
- zero : without 0 there is no 1, but with cessation of numbers zero don't disappear nor it influenced by this absense of numbers...

But doest it mean that there is different zeros for number 1 and number 999? Doest it mean that the white paper belongs to this or that word? Does the silence is conditioned by the sound? After the end of the sound only the sound ceases, silence can not cease... In the same way after cessation of dukkha only dukkha that ceases, absense of dukkha can not cease... Thats why we need to understand what is dukkha, to be able to lay down all manifestations of dukkha...

Nibbana element can be seen in all what is seen, heared, sensed. And direct realisation of that silence, space, peace, light, stability, purity in our minds liberate us from the dukkha of conditioned...

So yes Nibbana manifest itself as consciousness by its purity, but no Nibbana is not consciousness, rather consciousness (awareness, sati) is a bridge between Conditioned and Unconditioned... That's why sati is so important, and called by Buddha as "direct path to realisation", there is no more direct way to the other shore, that's why even Arahants still practicing sati, because it's a natural expression of their liberation, and that's why many practitioners say that Nibbana is consciousness... but I would say that it's not consciousness itself, but the consciousness is a by-product of that Unconditioned Purity...
But is conciiusness is burden? Because it changes? If there is conciousness that cognize nibbana then conciousness must be impermanent
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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Alīno
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Re: Consciousness

Post by Alīno » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:22 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:39 am

But is conciiusness is burden? Because it changes? If there is conciousness that cognize nibbana then conciousness must be impermanent
Yes, sense consciousness is impermanent.
Unconditioned Dhamma can be object of mind, n the same way that our back can feel the wall behind it, but the mind can not penetrate Unconditioned as this body can not penetrate the wall behind, in the same way as 0,000..001 will never touch 0. That's why we can tell nothing about Unconditioned Dhamma only what it is Not.
(Hmmm... Maybe in Nirodhasamapati mind can be in contact with it ? Don't know...)

Actualy Unconditioned can be cognized only in duality. As object and subject.
While there is a sound one can be aware of the silence on the background of this sound. Because there is no sound without silence.
While there is agitation of mind one can be aware of peace of the mind. Because without peace of mind agitation can not be cognized...
While there is dukkha on a can be aware of absense of dukkha, because the very fact that there is dukkha show us that originally there is no dukkha...

So we can use conditioned phenomena to see the Unconditioned, to get step on the conditioned and jump to the Unconditioned, like watching on the Moon light we can be aware "There is a Sun" or like mirror and reflection...

Try to listen to your inner voice and realise that actualy you are silent inside, and always been... :meditate:
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...

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