Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Khalil Bodhi » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:48 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:13 pm
Buddhism is pragmatic.

If a bhikkhu is being held against his will or threatened with death or injury he is allowed to give his assailant a blow in order to escape. That would likely be a strong blow, and might (perhaps) result in the death of his assailant, but if there is no intention to kill, the bhikkhu is blameless.

The Buddha was highly critical of Nigaṇṭh Nāṭaputta (Mahāvīra). They were naked ascetics. I don't know what, if any, similarity there is to modern Jainism apart from their practice of vegetarianism.
Bhante,

If you could provide a link to the Vinaya passage or Sutta I would very much appreciate it. If not, I thank you anyway for pointing it out.

Mettaya,

Mike
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:46 am

This quote comes under Pācittiya 74 on giving a bhikkhu a blow out of anger.
Buddhist Monastic Code wrote:Non-offences. According to the Vibhaṅga, there is no offence for a bhikkhu who, trapped in a difficult situation, gives a blow “desiring freedom.” The Commentary’s discussion of this point shows that it includes what we at present would call self‑defence; and the K/Commentary’s analysis of the factors of the offence here shows that even if anger or displeasure arises in one’s mind in cases like this, there is no penalty.
Summary: Giving a blow to another bhikkhu when motivated by anger is a Pācittiya offence.
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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Khalil Bodhi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:19 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:46 am
This quote comes under Pācittiya 74 on giving a bhikkhu a blow out of anger.
Buddhist Monastic Code wrote:Non-offences. According to the Vibhaṅga, there is no offence for a bhikkhu who, trapped in a difficult situation, gives a blow “desiring freedom.” The Commentary’s discussion of this point shows that it includes what we at present would call self‑defence; and the K/Commentary’s analysis of the factors of the offence here shows that even if anger or displeasure arises in one’s mind in cases like this, there is no penalty.
Summary: Giving a blow to another bhikkhu when motivated by anger is a Pācittiya offence.
Thank you Bhante. This is very helpful.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Placidium » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:55 pm

The Jain stance on non-violence becomes even more crucial as violent behaviour against those with irregular but perfectly natural sexual dispositions increases. This trend of vigilantism has no doubt increased as populism has reinforced reactionary traditionalism. All the violence in society can be traced to the arbitrary and warped moral codes which underpin the heterosexual family unit. Of course these bigots espousing traditional family values are unable to target homosexuals anymore so they persecute pedophiles and hebephiles. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these sexual predispositions and hebephilla is actually quite normative. At one point homosexuality was considered a disorder to be treated and removed from society.

The only way to erode social conservatism will be with the complete breakup of the heterosexual family unit.

As the late Tony Duvert said 'rage against the fascism of mothers'.
Last edited by Placidium on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Placidium wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:55 pm
The Jain stance on non-violence becomes even more crucial as violent behaviour against those with irregular but perfectly natural sexual dispositions increases. This trend of vigilantism has no doubt increased as populism has reinforced reactionary traditionalism. All the violence in society can be traced to the arbitrary and warped moral codes which underpin the heterosexual family unit. Of course these bigots espousing traditional family values are unable to target homosexuals anymore so they persecute pedophiles and hebephiles. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these sexual predispositions and hebephilla is actually quite normative. At one point homosexuality was considered a disorder to be treated and removed from society.

The only way to erode social conservatism will be with the complete breakup of the heterosexual family unit.

As the late Tony Divert said 'rage against the fascism of mothers'.
Do you think the Buddha proscribed paedophilia and hebephilia? Do you think he was keen on rage, especially against mothers?

I tried googling the appropriately-named Tony Divert, with and without the quote, but came up with nothing. Who was he?

{Edit} I discovered someone called Tony Duvert in another post of yours, on your favourite non-Buddhist philosophers. He was in the company of other advocates of paedophilia, or those suspected of paedophilia. So I guess that's him.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Placidium » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:39 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 pm
Do you think the Buddha proscribed paedophilia and hebephilia?
Not at all and that's not what I'm advocating. I just don't think people who naturally have innate predispositions toward irregular forms of sexual attraction should be harassed and executed by self-appointed vigilante thugs. Actually, provided they don't consummate their sexual attraction, I see no justification at all for discriminatory attitudes and behaviour toward paedophiles.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 pm
Do you think he was keen on rage, especially against mothers?
The only aggression and rage I see is from mothers (typically white anglo-saxon) along with their thuggish husbands, looking for any excuse to resort to violence and even murder, against any single adult male who they construe as being a threat to their precious family unit. The modern hysteria surrounding pedophilla and the over-protection of children has led to the fear-based society I currently inhabit, where every unattached adult male is under constant suspicion. Often unfounded and defamatory accusations have led to vulnerable adult men being targeting as scapegoats. Even killed.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 pm
I tried googling the appropriately-named Tony Divert, with and without the quote, but came up with nothing. Who was he?

{Edit} I discovered someone called Tony Duvert in another post of yours, on your favourite non-Buddhist philosophers. He was in the company of other advocates of paedophilia, or those suspected of paedophilia. So I guess that's him.
Yes sorry Tony Duvert.

The hysteria around paedophilla is reaching Joseph McCarthy era witch-hunting proportions. At least back then people where slightly more civilised. All too often now, those wrongly-suspected of paedophilla and those other poor people unable to help the way they were born, are left to the mercy of 'kangaroo-courts' presided over by murderous thugs who constitute the pillars-of-the-community.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:12 pm

Placidium wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 pm
Do you think the Buddha proscribed paedophilia and hebephilia?
Not at all and that's not what I'm advocating. I just don't think people who naturally have innate predispositions toward irregular forms of sexual attraction should be harassed and executed by self-appointed vigilante thugs. Actually provided they don't consummate their sexual attraction I see no reason at all for discriminatory attitudes and behaviour toward paedophiles.
We may be in danger of drifting off-topic here, especially as I know little about the Jain attitudes to sex and its expression. Perhaps you will want to start a new topic, or the mods will want to split this into a new one.

There may be some confusion around the notion of the Buddha "proscribing" things. I mean it in the sense of forbidding or disapproving of those things. Hebephilic and paedophilic actions affecting other people would seem to fall under the third precept, and I would think it unwise to even advocate them, considering how often the Buddha spoke against inciting or causing unwholesome activities in others. Some people might find themselves in such a wretched condition that they are unable to express their sexual needs; I don't know whether such people would be more advised to completely eradicate sexual desire than those with more orthodox urges, but that seems to make sense to me. And of course, our reactions to those who are different is our own kamma, so we need to be circumspect here.

With regard to discrimination against such people, I think the compassionate approach here is to discriminate only where such discrimination is justified by the safety of others (i.e. I would certainly not want a paedophile, active or dormant, working with my children) but otherwise not (their sexual nature should have no impact upon, say, them gaining employment or state benefits or access to the law).
The only aggression and rage I see is from mothers (typically white anglo-saxon ones) and their thuggish husbands looking for any excuse to resort to violence and even murder, against any single adult male who they construe as being a threat to their precious family unit.


Really? I see far more sources of rage than that. In the great scheme of things (disputes over property, identity, religion, etc) it seems relatively minor.
The hysteria around paedophilla is reaching Joseph McCarthy era witch-hunting proportions. Unfortunately at least back then people where slightly more civilised. All too often now those wrongly-suspected of paedophilla and those other poor people unable to help the way they were born are left to the mercy of 'kangaroo-courts' presided over by murderous thugs who constitute the pillars-of-the-community.
I think it depends on the cultural and legal history of specific countries. Where I live, paedophile activity can rightly get you jailed. In previous ages, it would have got you mob justice of the worst sort, with no possibility of appeal to a higher authority.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:49 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:12 pm
There may be some confusion around the notion of the Buddha "proscribing" things. I mean it in the sense of forbidding or disapproving of those things. Hebephilic and paedophilic actions affecting other people would seem to fall under the third precept, and I would think it unwise to even advocate them, considering how often the Buddha spoke against inciting or causing unwholesome activities in others.
I agree, it would be a violation of the sexual misconduct precept. One of the relations not allowed:
1. Anyone under the guardianship of their parents, i.e. under-aged
Anguttara Nikaya V. 264

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Aloka » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:36 am

Placidium wrote: The only aggression and rage I see is from mothers (typically white anglo-saxon) along with their thuggish husbands, looking for any excuse to resort to violence and even murder, against any single adult male who they construe as being a threat to their precious family unit. The modern hysteria surrounding pedophilla and the over-protection of children has led to the fear-based society I currently inhabit, where every unattached adult male is under constant suspicion. Often unfounded and defamatory accusations have led to vulnerable adult men being targeting as scapegoats. Even killed.
Where do you live ? The only aggression, rage and thuggery that I'm seeing at the moment appears to be emanating from your posts, and not from the area of the world where I live myself!

:shrug:


.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:40 am

Placidium wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:55 pm
The only way to erode social conservatism will be with the complete breakup of the heterosexual family unit.

As the late Tony Duvert said 'rage against the fascism of mothers'.
As if humans are in need for more degeneracy! This what happens when non-violence serves as a justification for existence.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Is the Jain stance on nonviolence more compelling then the Buddhist viewpoint?

Post by seeker242 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:16 pm

weak wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:34 pm
would the Buddhist viewpoint be sympathetic to the warped moral codes of the vigilante general public who demand mob justice?
There is no reason to think that it would.

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