Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
confusedlayman
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:32 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:22 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:09 pm
. there should be a rule which prohibits layman to teach Dhamma.
You would kill the dhamma if you made that rule. As far as i remember, Buddha said someone with good intentions was ok to teach, even if they didn't have any attainments. I'll find the sutta if nobody finds it in a few days.
u can discuss about Dhamma with other practitioners but u can't teach with authority. are you sure you will not misrepresent when teaching?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:19 am

Human nature strikes again.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

pyluyten
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by pyluyten » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:34 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:32 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:22 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:09 pm
. there should be a rule which prohibits layman to teach Dhamma.
You would kill the dhamma if you made that rule. As far as i remember, Buddha said someone with good intentions was ok to teach, even if they didn't have any attainments. I'll find the sutta if nobody finds it in a few days.
u can discuss about Dhamma with other practitioners but u can't teach with authority. are you sure you will not misrepresent when teaching?
We can detect when a monk smokes tobacco. Provided external behaviour we may consider a monk provides less valuable teaching. But how to detect when his mind is full of smoke?

I should not accept a teaching based on teacher title, age, sex, race. i should accept a teaching based on teaching usefulness. Then I should not consider myself a good teacher based on title, age, sex, race. I should rather consider myself a good teacher based on "attainments". But then how people would judge their own attainments? Sutta show example of monks with wrong opinions about their attainments. So every teacher is suspicious. Unfortunately.

Culadasa had useful teachings which made sense. ***Maybe*** his mind is full of smoke but this was really not obvious, difficult to discover. i write Maybe because of course we will wait for his final reply, but a priori he is not to contest the incident, only the mediation.

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pilgrim
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by pilgrim » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:22 am

"[The Blessed One said:] "Well done, householder. Well done. That is how you should periodically refute those foolish men with the Dhamma." Then he instructed, urged, roused, and encouraged Anathapindika the householder with a talk on Dhamma......................"Monks, even a monk who has long penetrated the Dhamma in this Doctrine and Discipline would do well to refute the wanderers of other persuasions with the Dhamma periodically in just the way Anathapindika the householder has done."" ~ Ditthi sutta, AN10.93

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Bundokji
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Bundokji » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 am

I am thinking of the "transparency" part of the story, and when it is more skillful to reveal such issues as opposite to firing him without making the whole thing a topic for gossip and opportunity for people to act as if they were "holier than thou".

Does Buddhism have something similar to the spirit of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"? and to what extent such approach is culturally influenced? Would it be wrong to assume that western sanghas are more likely to make things public than their eastern counterparts?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

confusedlayman
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by confusedlayman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:21 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 am
I am thinking of the "transparency" part of the story, and when it is more skillful to reveal such issues as opposite to firing him without making the whole thing a topic for gossip and opportunity for people to act as if they were "holier than thou".

Does Buddhism have something similar to the spirit of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"? and to what extent such approach is culturally influenced? Would it be wrong to assume that western sanghas are more likely to make things public than their eastern counterparts?
if he done anything wrong or right anyway he has buddhist teaching to help him overcome the fault as no one is perfect in this world. since he is not a monk, there is no great penalty and lets all focus on our defilement first and eradicate all defilements asap.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

confusedlayman
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by confusedlayman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:28 am

pyluyten wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:34 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:32 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:22 pm

You would kill the dhamma if you made that rule. As far as i remember, Buddha said someone with good intentions was ok to teach, even if they didn't have any attainments. I'll find the sutta if nobody finds it in a few days.
u can discuss about Dhamma with other practitioners but u can't teach with authority. are you sure you will not misrepresent when teaching?
We can detect when a monk smokes tobacco. Provided external behaviour we may consider a monk provides less valuable teaching. But how to detect when his mind is full of smoke?

I should not accept a teaching based on teacher title, age, sex, race. i should accept a teaching based on teaching usefulness. Then I should not consider myself a good teacher based on title, age, sex, race. I should rather consider myself a good teacher based on "attainments". But then how people would judge their own attainments? Sutta show example of monks with wrong opinions about their attainments. So every teacher is suspicious. Unfortunately.

Culadasa had useful teachings which made sense. ***Maybe*** his mind is full of smoke but this was really not obvious, difficult to discover. i write Maybe because of course we will wait for his final reply, but a priori he is not to contest the incident, only the mediation.
you are right. I agree. you went to him to get his teaching and practised it and it works for you and you are happy. you didn't go to him thinking this master is pure and hence I accept his teaching. you accepted him without wanting to know his personal character but want to try out his teaching alone to make ur life better. but you are also to consider the morality of master. imagine if buddha was not morally fit and you think his teaching would have lasted this much years? no way. that's why buddha itself said his teaching won't last long because future masters have defilement especially with women (pls find the source as I read it long back). however he was not ordained and living with monk rules and we don't know the whole story if its true or not. so lets focus on our defilement as we also can do the same mistake if we are not mindful.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

binocular
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:50 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 am
Does Buddhism have something similar to the spirit of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"?
It seems that people generally, regardless of culture, operate by the principle "He who casts the first stone is innocent"; so that in order to make oneself innocent (!), one needs to cast the first stone.
Or, "guilty until proven innocent".
and to what extent such approach is culturally influenced?
Do you know any place or culture where people actually behave in line with "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" ?
Would it be wrong to assume that western sanghas are more likely to make things public than their eastern counterparts?
It seems so.
And it's not clear whether making scandals public actually helps anyone. In legal theory, it should. But in real life?

What do threads like this accomplish? Other than people making nasty fun of someone's name, tarnishing their reputation, and triggering/feeding people's doubts about the Dhamma?


There's an interesting passage in the Sigalovada Sutta:
(1) "In four ways, young householder, should a helpmate be understood as a warm-hearted friend:

(i) he guards the heedless,
(ii) he protects the wealth of the heedless,
(iii) he becomes a refuge when you are in danger,
(iv) when there are commitments he provides you with double the supply needed.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:43 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:11 am
Does Buddhism have something similar to the spirit of "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"? and to what extent such approach is culturally influenced?
Interesting question. On the face of it, the evidence from suttas would appear to be contradictory. There is the recommendation against 'conceit' construed as the tendency to compare ourselves to others according to certain criteria:
Whatever recluses and Brahmans, So.na, hold views about the body, which is impermanent, unsatisfactory and subject to change, such as 'I am better [than you],' 'I am equal [to you],' or 'I am worse [than you]' [likewise 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'], what else are they but folk who do not see things as they really are?

"But, So.na, whatever recluses and Brahmans do not hold such views... What else are they but those who see things as they really are?"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

However, there is also a theme regarding who is capable of instructing others:
"It is not possible, Cunda, that one who is himself not restrained, not disciplined and not quenched [as to his passions],[24] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions].[25] But it is possible, Cunda, that one who is himself restrained, disciplined and fully quenched [as to his passions] should make others restrained and disciplined, should make them attain to the full quenching [of passions]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el061.html

What's interesting about the Christian prohibition is that it is usually seen as an injunction to refrain from all judgement by setting the bar impossibly high. It could, with a different cultural context, be seen as something more akin to MN 8, a warning that one should refrain from criticism unless one is somehow properly qualified to do so.

binocular
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:03 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:43 am
What's interesting about the Christian prohibition is that it is usually seen as an injunction to refrain from all judgement by setting the bar impossibly high.
It's not impossibly high at all. In Catholicism, for example, all one needs to be without sin is to have received absolution of sins after confession (obviously, one cannot go to confession unless one is baptized). So on Sundays, usually, you get masses of people who are without sin, and thus free to judge, being properly qualified to do so.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:19 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:43 am
What's interesting about the Christian prohibition is that it is usually seen as an injunction to refrain from all judgement by setting the bar impossibly high.
It's not impossibly high at all. In Catholicism, for example, all one needs to be without sin is to have received absolution of sins after confession (obviously, one cannot go to confession unless one is baptized). So on Sundays, usually, you get masses of people who are without sin, and thus free to judge, being properly qualified to do so.
Even this literalist interpretation would not work, as anyone so judging would thereby be sinning, and not be in a position to judge. That's why there is no tradition of Catholics judging others after absolution, and Christianity as a whole placing emphasis on personal recognition of one's own sin.

binocular
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by binocular » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:33 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:19 pm
Even this literalist interpretation would not work, as anyone so judging would thereby be sinning,
How would they be sinning??
That's why there is no tradition of Catholics judging others after absolution, and Christianity as a whole placing emphasis on personal recognition of one's own sin.
Clearly, you haven't been around many Catholics on Sundays and Mondays. They are especially righteous on those days.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:33 pm
How would they be sinning??
By judging others. Jesus said not to do it.
Clearly, you haven't been around many Catholics on Sundays and Mondays. They are especially righteous on those days.
Yes, I've lived among large numbers of devout Catholics. Never noticed it, nor is it any part of doctrine or even popular culture. You might be imagining it.

binocular
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by binocular » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:45 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
Yes, I've lived among large numbers of devout Catholics. Never noticed it, nor is it any part of doctrine or even popular culture. You might be imagining it.
You might have a blind spot.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Kim OHara
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Re: Culadasa : An annoucement from Dharma Board

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:13 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:45 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:41 pm
Yes, I've lived among large numbers of devout Catholics. Never noticed it, nor is it any part of doctrine or even popular culture. You might be imagining it.
You might have a blind spot.
Or perhaps Catholics in different communities behave differently.

:coffee:
Kim

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