Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:34 pm

The Mindful Cranks website contains some interesting interviews by Ron Purser and David Forbes of people in various areas of expertise.

In Episode 12: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma? Deborah Rozelle (a Psychologist and Buddhist practitioner) and David Lewis discuss their work on comparing MBIs with Buddhadharma. There are some references with more detail (see below). [It is long. For those in a hurry, their short answer to the title question is "no", but the discussion is very interesting, and goes to the heart of many issues surrounding secular mindfulness.]
In this episode, Deborah and David begin by discussing their work with trauma and its relationship to contemplative practice. We then examine mindfulness-based interventions (MBIs) such as MBSR and MBCT, comparing these often beneficial psychological self-help programs to the fundamental tenets and ultimate goals of the Buddhadharma. Deborah and David employ a unique analogical methodology to compare both trauma and MBIs with the Buddhadharma teachings and practices, focusing on commonly used terms as suffering (dukkha), impermanence, and no-self. Our discussion takes aim many of the claims put forth by Jon Kabat-Zinn – the MBSR (and other MBIs) embody the essence of the Dharma. This discussion is based on their chapter, "Mindfulness-Based Interventions: Clinical Psychology, Buddhadharma, or Both? A Wisdom Perspective," https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... erspective which was published in the Handbook of Mindfulness: Culture, Context and Social Engagement (Springer, 2016) https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 44019-4_17. Some of their work relating trauma and Buddhadharma can be found at a 2015 Harvard Divinity School symposium. http://www.traumaandcontemplativepracti ... o/#Rozelle

http://www.mindfulcranks.com/new-blog
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dharmacorps
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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 pm

Thank you for the link! I am glad they didn't say "yes", but I would have been interested to hear the argument if they did! This is how I found Buddhism, or rather, Theravada. I took a 8 week MBSR course years ago, and at the end my teacher said "if you want to know where this practice comes from, go to Access to Insight". I feel that is a perfect way to introduce the dhamma at least for people with a disposition for it-- meditate for a while, then hear the teachings.

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:40 pm

Hi dharmacorps
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 pm
.. I took a 8 week MBSR course years ago, and at the end my teacher said "if you want to know where this practice comes from, go to Access to Insight". ...
That's great! One of the questions raised in the discussion is how common that is. They voiced the worry that if there is an implication that these methods contain all of the essentials of the Dharma/Dhamma, there is no need to seek more details elsewhere.

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:47 pm

The essence of Buddha-Dhamma is sila or morality. MN 6 says to attain any Dhammic fruit, first, a practitioner must follow the precepts. Following the precepts will result in not needing this Jewish Freudian psychotherapy disguised as Buddhism.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by Dan74 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:52 pm

:bow: :jumping:
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:47 pm
The essence of Buddha-Dhamma is sila or morality. MN 6 says to attain any Dhammic fruit, first, a practitioner must follow the precepts. Following the precepts will result in not needing this Jewish Freudian psychotherapy disguised as Buddhism.
MBTI has nothing to do with psychoanalysis or "Jewish psychotherapy", whatever that may be... :roll:
_/|\_

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:57 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:52 pm
MBTI has nothing to do with psychoanalysis or "Jewish psychotherapy", whatever that may be... :roll:
I am referring to a "client-centred" approach of addressing mental proliferations where a set framework of ethics of human behaviour does not explicitly exist. Video is set to relevant place.
implicit

suggested though not directly expressed.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:00 pm

I know a very close friend of mine a Christian who is going through CBT.
He said that he has to visit is the therapist very often.
I was reluctant to tell him about the MBCT or about Buddhsim, thinking that he might take it in the wrong way.
It is great to see many people are benefited from the Buddha's teaching even if they do not have the opportunity to go all the way to Nibbana.
I wonder whether there are any converted Buddhists through the MBCT.
I am sure even if they become Buddhist, they will be secular Buddhists.
Secular Buddhism is not such a bad thing as far as they are not going to attack conventional Buddhism.
The same way conventional Buddhist should not attack secular Buddhist or any other religion.
Sometimes the conventional Buddhist could be worse than secular Buddhist due to the fact that they do not understand the conventional Buddhism either.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:32 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:00 pm
I wonder whether there are any converted Buddhists through the MBCT.
Did you read dharmacorps' post?
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 pm
.. I took a 8 week MBSR course years ago, and at the end my teacher said "if you want to know where this practice comes from, go to Access to Insight". ...
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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:18 am

Oh.
Which means DC became a Buddhist after attending the course?
It is great to see MBCT teacher acknowledge the input from Buddhsim.
This is a good practice, as you make acknowledgment when you write a book or even making a post in DW.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Are Mindfulness-Based Interventions The Essence Of The Buddhadharma?

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:54 pm

Yes, a few months after the class, and some big time reading on the subject and meditating, I began calling myself a Buddhist-- whether that means I "became" a Buddhist or "converted" I am not sure :) I was a pretty committed atheist before that.

The first meditation retreat I went on, with this class, I had a pretty intense experience in meditation which helped convince me there is something to this.

To be fair, I don't think my experience is typical. My teacher told me that every year she has a few students who really "catch on". Most people in the class seemed focused on trying to reduce their stress on a daily basis so they could better cope with anxiety, depression, health issues, and family life (that's why I took the course I know). The course is deliberately stripped of all religious sounding content because the classes are taught in a therapy/health context in hospitals, community centers, etc. In some parts of the USA there is substantial resistance to things like MBSR and even Yoga-- they claim it is an attempt to convert Christians and lead them into Heathen practice. :thinking:

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