Arahant's suicide

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Germann
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Saratthappakasini

Post by Germann » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:49 pm

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3

p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"

note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.

chownah
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Re: Theravada.ru

Post by chownah » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm

Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:49 am
Germann wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:17 pm

This is a story about the content of the Comment.
Yes, it means āṭṭhakathā.
So....it is a comment on a Commentary?......bring the Commentary's name in english and perhaps even a link so we can see if the Commentary supports what you are saying or whether it is just someones comment on the Commentary which might be what you claim as support.
chownah
This is a story about the content of the canonical Commentary on the website of the Theravadin community.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?
chownah

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Germann
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Post by Germann » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:49 am

So....it is a comment on a Commentary?......bring the Commentary's name in english and perhaps even a link so we can see if the Commentary supports what you are saying or whether it is just someones comment on the Commentary which might be what you claim as support.
chownah
This is a story about the content of the canonical Commentary on the website of the Theravadin community.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?
chownah
There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.

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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada.ru

Post by cappuccino » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:19 pm

Germann wrote:According to the Commentary
one has to figure out the teaching, then practice it

the commentary doesn't serve that purpose

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Germann
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Milinda Pañha

Post by Germann » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm

Milinda Pañha:

"It was, your majesty, in order that the virtuous man, whose good qualities are so many, so numerous, so infinitely multiplied, who is such an embodiment and aggregation of good qualities, such a cause of welfare to men, might not perish, that The Blessed One, your majesty, out of compassion for men, laid down this precept: 'Priests, let no one destroy himself, and whosoever would destroy himself, let him be dealt with according to law.'

"Moreover, your majesty, the following was said by the brilliant preacher, the elder Kumara-Kassapa, in an exposition of the next world which he made to prince Payasi: 'The longer, O prince, virtuous and noble monks and Brahmans live, the more they avail for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, for compassionating the world, for the advantage, the welfare, and the happiness of gods and men.'

When the gain of others is more important than their own gain (immediate deliverance from dukkha during the breakdown of khandh), in the Mahayana this is called the bodhichitta motivation.

cookiemonster
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cookiemonster » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm
Is Arahant's suicide a GOOD completion of the Path? If it is not, then why Arahant is not the Mahayana Bodhisattva (placing Benefit-For-The Other above Benefit-For-Itself)?
Among the two, the arahant expresses the highest benefit for others and for self, through his or her achievement of the highest emanicpation - arahatta.

The bodhisattva idea involves a lesser being who is still clinging to ideas about self (as reflected in other beings he feels compelled to save), and is thus still tied to samsaric existence.

chownah
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Re:

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am

Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:43 pm

This is a story about the content of the canonical Commentary on the website of the Theravadin community.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?
chownah
There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.
I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah

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Germann
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:14 am

cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm
Is Arahant's suicide a GOOD completion of the Path? If it is not, then why Arahant is not the Mahayana Bodhisattva (placing Benefit-For-The Other above Benefit-For-Itself)?
Among the two, the arahant expresses the highest benefit for others and for self, through his or her achievement of the highest emanicpation - arahatta.

The bodhisattva idea involves a lesser being who is still clinging to ideas about self (as reflected in other beings he feels compelled to save), and is thus still tied to samsaric existence.
In the Mahayana bodhisattva does not have to cling to.

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Germann
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Re: Re:

Post by Germann » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:16 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?
chownah
There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.
I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah
The Pali original has this phrase. The information on Theravada.ru site is correct.

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DooDoot
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Re: Milinda Pañha

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:21 am

Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm
'The longer, O prince, virtuous and noble monks and Brahmans live, the more they avail for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, for compassionating the world, for the advantage, the welfare, and the happiness of gods and men.'
It sounds like a monk must become "noble" before being able to be of welfare to the multitude.
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm
When the gain of others is more important than their own gain (immediate deliverance from dukkha during the breakdown of khandh), in the Mahayana this is called the bodhichitta motivation.
Obviously, what is highlighted above is not Theravada.
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 pm
Milinda Pañha:

"It was, your majesty, in order that the virtuous man, whose good qualities are so many, so numerous, so infinitely multiplied, who is such an embodiment and aggregation of good qualities, such a cause of welfare to men, might not perish, that The Blessed One, your majesty, out of compassion for men, laid down this precept: 'Priests, let no one destroy himself, and whosoever would destroy himself, let him be dealt with according to law.'
Maybe the above is true. But if a monk is so sick & disabled that he can longer help others & solely becomes a burden for others (to care for him), then it seems the precept above no longer applies. Regards :smile:
“Please don’t slit your wrists! Venerable Channa, keep going! We want you to keep going. If you don’t have any suitable food, we’ll find it for you. If you don’t have suitable medicine, we’ll find it for you. If you don’t have a capable carer, we’ll find one for you. Please don’t slit your wrists! Venerable Channa, keep going! We want you to keep going.”

“Reverend Sāriputta, it’s not that I don’t have suitable food, or suitable medicine, or a capable carer. Moreover, for a long time now I have served the Teacher with love, not without love. For it is proper for a disciple to serve the Teacher with love, not without love. You should remember this: ‘The mendicant Channa slit his wrists blamelessly :meditate: .’”

https://suttacentral.net/mn144/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

justindesilva
Posts: 1016
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Re: Re:

Post by justindesilva » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:37 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?
chownah
There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.
I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah
How can we trust Buddhagosa as an authority on Tripitaka though he wrote Visuddhimagga. He was a hindu scholar and philisopher. He wrote visuddimagga on an invitation. He is however noted to have departed from canonical texts. The period of mahavihara when he wrote visuddhimagga is in the 5th century A.D.

cookiemonster
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cookiemonster » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:43 am

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:14 am
cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm
Is Arahant's suicide a GOOD completion of the Path? If it is not, then why Arahant is not the Mahayana Bodhisattva (placing Benefit-For-The Other above Benefit-For-Itself)?
Among the two, the arahant expresses the highest benefit for others and for self, through his or her achievement of the highest emanicpation - arahatta.

The bodhisattva idea involves a lesser being who is still clinging to ideas about self (as reflected in other beings he feels compelled to save), and is thus still tied to samsaric existence.
In the Mahayana bodhisattva does not have to cling to.
The bodhisatta in the Pali texts is called "unenlightened".

If a bodhisattva does not cling and possess no residue in clinging, then they would not be "operating" in samsara, but would be completely emancipated in parinibbana.

chownah
Posts: 8254
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Re:

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:02 am

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:16 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm

There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.
I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah
The Pali original has this phrase. The information on Theravada.ru site is correct.
I don't know what you are talking about.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?....please respond to this....please answer my question.
chownah

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Germann
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:24 pm

Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:43 am
Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:14 am
cookiemonster wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:02 pm


Among the two, the arahant expresses the highest benefit for others and for self, through his or her achievement of the highest emanicpation - arahatta.

The bodhisattva idea involves a lesser being who is still clinging to ideas about self (as reflected in other beings he feels compelled to save), and is thus still tied to samsaric existence.
In the Mahayana bodhisattva does not have to cling to.
The bodhisatta in the Pali texts is called "unenlightened".

If a bodhisattva does not cling and possess no residue in clinging, then they would not be "operating" in samsara, but would be completely emancipated in parinibbana.
If khandhas is dukkha in three times, and dukkha is a loss, why did Buddha continue dukkha, staying alive - when he was able to commit suicide?

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Germann
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:24 pm

See the Pali original

Post by Germann » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:31 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:02 am
Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:16 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am

I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah
The Pali original has this phrase. The information on Theravada.ru site is correct.
I don't know what you are talking about.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?....please respond to this....please answer my question.
chownah
It really is in the Commentary. See the Pali original.
Image
Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

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