Arahant's suicide

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Germann
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Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10). Old age and pain is dukkha (SN 22.59).

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:41 am

sentinel wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:57 am
Suffering arises because there is ignorance . So , if arhat has stopped the suffering , this means the aggregates of clinging that is the outcome of ignorance continues as long as the conditions to sustain aggregates still remains . Because without ignorance there is no aggregates comes into being .
Khandhas is dukkha, and still khandhas, the Arahant are not spared from all kinds of dukkha. Old age and pain is dukkha. The old, decrepit Arahant, who travels on foot through the hot dusty India, has the experience of dukkha.

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DooDoot
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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 am

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:38 am
Khandhas is dukkha, the Arahant has them, so can not be completely free from dukkha.
SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta - upadana khandhas are dukkha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Germann
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Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:38 am
Khandhas is dukkha, the Arahant has them, so can not be completely free from dukkha.
SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta - upadana khandhas are dukkha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text - unlike the Sutta text SN 22.10.

If khandhas without upadana is not dukkha, then in the future khandhas which are not dukkha are possible. But Sutta SN 22.10 says that in the future khandhas is also dukkha.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn22.10

Suffering in the Three Times

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, form is suffering, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present.
Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards form of the past; he does not seek delight in form of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards form of the present, for its fading away and cessation.

“Feeling is suffering … Perception is suffering … Volitional formations are suffering … Consciousness is suffering, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards consciousness of the past; he does not seek delight in consciousness of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards consciousness of the present, for its fading away and cessation.”
Last edited by Germann on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:16 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text - unlike the Sutta text SN 22.10.
1st noble truth in SN 56.11 says the upadana khandha are dukkha. SN 22.48 says there are two sets of khandha: (i) mere khandha; and (ii) upadana khandha. SN 56.11 + SN 22.48 = upadana khandhas are dukkha. But not mere khandhas.
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
SN 22.10.
SN 22.10 is about the 2nd characteristic. SN 22.9 is about the 1st characteristic (impermanence) and SN 22.11 is about the 3rd characteristic (not-self). The 2nd characteristic does not mean "suffering". It means "unsatisfactoriness" or the incapacity of a conditioned & impermanent thing, such as a rock or cloud, to bring lasting happiness. Obviously a rock or a cloud are not "suffering". The teaching below says experiencing "unsatisfactoriness" leads to enlightenment & freedom from suffering. :smile:
277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā'ti yadā paññāya passati tha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Germann
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Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:16 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text - unlike the Sutta text SN 22.10.
1st noble truth in SN 56.11 says the upadana khandha are dukkha. SN 22.48 says there are two sets of khandha: (i) mere khandha; and (ii) upadana khandha. SN 56.11 + SN 22.48 = upadana khandhas are dukkha. But not mere khandhas.
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
SN 22.10.
SN 22.10 is about the 2nd characteristic. SN 22.9 is about the 1st characteristic (impermanence) and SN 22.11 is about the 3rd characteristic (not-self). The 2nd characteristic does not mean "suffering". It means "unsatisfactoriness" or the incapacity of a conditioned & impermanent thing, such as a rock or cloud, to bring lasting happiness. Obviously a rock or a cloud are not "suffering". The teaching below says experiencing "unsatisfactoriness" leads to enlightenment & freedom from suffering.
277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
"... form is suffering, both of the past and the future ... feeling is suffering … perception is suffering … volitional formations are suffering … consciousness is suffering, both of the past and the future" (SN 22.10)

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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:23 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:20 pm
"... form is suffering, both of the past and the future ... feeling is suffering … perception is suffering … volitional formations are suffering … consciousness is suffering, both of the past and the future" (SN 22.10)
The Buddha did not speak in English. The translator above has translated the Pali incorrectly. The translation above should be "unsatisfactory". Now, when I reply to you but you avoid refuting my reply, this is a sign you have be thoroughly defeated in debate.

:strawman: :jedi:
278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:27 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:23 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:20 pm
"... form is suffering, both of the past and the future ... feeling is suffering … perception is suffering … volitional formations are suffering … consciousness is suffering, both of the past and the future" (SN 22.10)
The Buddha did not speak in English. The translator above has translated the Pali incorrectly. The translation above should be "unsatisfactory". Now, when I reply to you but you avoid refuting my reply, this is a sign you have be thoroughly defeated in debate.

:strawman: :jedi:
Kālat­ta­ya­duk­kha­sutta

Sāvatthi­nidānaṃ. “Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ rūpasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ rūpaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa rūpassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti. Vedanā dukkhā … saññā dukkhā … saṅkhārā dukkhā … viññāṇaṃ dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ viññāṇasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ viññāṇaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa viññāṇassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hotī”ti.

Dasamaṃ.


What's wrong?

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DooDoot
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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:31 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:27 pm
Kālat­ta­ya­duk­kha­sutta

Sāvatthi­nidānaṃ. “Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ rūpasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ rūpaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa rūpassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti. Vedanā dukkhā … saññā dukkhā … saṅkhārā dukkhā … viññāṇaṃ dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ viññāṇasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ viññāṇaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa viññāṇassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hotī”ti.

What's wrong?
I already addressed this. The word "dukkhā" here means "unsatisfactory". It is a characteristic or quality of the aggregates. It does not mean the "suffering" or "unhappiness" of the mind; just as the characteristics of impermanence & not-self are a characteristic or quality of the aggregates.

Considered logically:

1. If the mind was suffering, it would be unenlightened.

2. If the mind was not-self, it would be enlightened.

This shows "dukkha" as a characteristic does not mean "suffering"; otherwise there could be no enlightenment.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Germann
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Do you agree that any khandhas are dukkha?

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:35 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:31 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:27 pm
Kālat­ta­ya­duk­kha­sutta

Sāvatthi­nidānaṃ. “Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ rūpasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ rūpaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa rūpassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti. Vedanā dukkhā … saññā dukkhā … saṅkhārā dukkhā … viññāṇaṃ dukkhaṃ atītānāgataṃ; ko pana vādo paccuppannassa. Evaṃ passaṃ, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako atītasmiṃ viññāṇasmiṃ anapekkho hoti; anāgataṃ viññāṇaṃ nābhinandati; paccuppannassa viññāṇassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hotī”ti.

What's wrong?
I already addressed this. The word "dukkhā" here means "unsatisfactory". It is a characteristic or quality of the aggregates. It does not mean the "suffering" or "unhappiness" of the mind; just as the characteristics of impermanence & not-self are a characteristic or quality of the aggregates.

:smile:
Do you agree that any khandhas are dukkha?

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DooDoot
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Re: Do you agree that any khandhas are dukkha?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:38 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:35 pm
Do you agree that any khandhas are dukkha?
The word "dukkha" does not have one meaning. It has multiple meanings.

1. When "dukkha" means "suffering" or "unhappiness", only the upadana-khandha are dukkha (and not the mere khandha).

2. When "dukkha" means "unsatisfactory", the mere khandhas are dukkha (but they are not necessarily "suffering").

This is my last post to you on this matter. What I am explaining is like kindergarten level of Buddhism. Its so basic. :zzz:

Your posts are not about Buddhism. They are about mistranslations into English. You think the translations by some Westerners is exactly what the Buddha taught.

Your posts appear to not be rational. You appear to think a rock or cloud (rupa khandha) is "suffering". :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

chownah
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Re: Khandhas is dukkha (SN 22.10)

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:38 am
Khandhas is dukkha, the Arahant has them, so can not be completely free from dukkha.
SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta - upadana khandhas are dukkha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text -
Yes.....the text does not mention dukkha specifically....what it does do is to delineate the difference between "aggregates" and "clinging aggregates"....
"Upadana" is the word used for "clinging"....note that upadana also can be translated as "craving" showing that clinging and craving are two words for the same thing as shown in Nyanatiloka's dictionary (it would be good to read the entire entry and even the next entry after it or so):
Upādāna: 'clinging', according to Vis.M XVII, is an intensified degree of craving tanhā
Now, let's see just what "cessation of suffering" is.....from SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth:
Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
So then we see a clear path showing that is is letting go of craving which brings the cessation of suffering....and so having given up the clinging aggregates (not the aggregates in general but specifically the clinging aggregates) one would have the cessation of suffering since the clinging aggregates are the base for the arising of craving/clinging as mentioned in nyanatiloka's dictionary in one of the entries following the entry for upadana.
chownah

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Germann
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Pain, change, conditioning.

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:20 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:38 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:35 pm
Do you agree that any khandhas are dukkha?
The word "dukkha" does not have one meaning. It has multiple meanings.

1. When "dukkha" means "suffering" or "unhappiness", only the upadana-khandha are dukkha (and not the mere khandha).

2. When "dukkha" means "unsatisfactory", the mere khandhas are dukkha (but they are not necessarily "suffering").

This is my last post to you on this matter. What I am explaining is like kindergarten level of Buddhism. Its so basic. :zzz:

Your posts are not about Buddhism. They are about mistranslations into English. You think the translations by some Westerners is exactly what the Buddha taught.

Your posts appear to not be rational. You appear to think a rock or cloud (rupa khandha) is "suffering". :smile:
There are three kinds of dukkha. (Pain, change, conditioning.) Pain means "suffering", conditioning means "unsatisfactory", ОК. The preservation of dukkha is not good, so the title question remains valid.
Last edited by Germann on Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Germann
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What a Sutta says about khandhas without upadana, which are not dukkha?

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:27 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:53 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:54 am

SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta - upadana khandhas are dukkha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text -
Yes.....the text does not mention dukkha specifically....what it does do is to delineate the difference between "aggregates" and "clinging aggregates"....
"Upadana" is the word used for "clinging"....note that upadana also can be translated as "craving" showing that clinging and craving are two words for the same thing as shown in Nyanatiloka's dictionary (it would be good to read the entire entry and even the next entry after it or so):
Upādāna: 'clinging', according to Vis.M XVII, is an intensified degree of craving tanhā
Now, let's see just what "cessation of suffering" is.....from SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth:
Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
So then we see a clear path showing that is is letting go of craving which brings the cessation of suffering....and so having given up the clinging aggregates (not the aggregates in general but specifically the clinging aggregates) one would have the cessation of suffering since the clinging aggregates are the base for the arising of craving/clinging as mentioned in nyanatiloka's dictionary in one of the entries following the entry for upadana.
chownah
What a Sutta says about khandhas without upadana, which are not dukkha?

chownah
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Re: What a Sutta says about khandhas without upadana, which are not dukkha?

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:35 pm

Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:27 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:53 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm

There is no talk of dukkha and the word "dukkha" is not in the Sutta text -
Yes.....the text does not mention dukkha specifically....what it does do is to delineate the difference between "aggregates" and "clinging aggregates"....
"Upadana" is the word used for "clinging"....note that upadana also can be translated as "craving" showing that clinging and craving are two words for the same thing as shown in Nyanatiloka's dictionary (it would be good to read the entire entry and even the next entry after it or so):
Upādāna: 'clinging', according to Vis.M XVII, is an intensified degree of craving tanhā
Now, let's see just what "cessation of suffering" is.....from SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth:
Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
So then we see a clear path showing that is is letting go of craving which brings the cessation of suffering....and so having given up the clinging aggregates (not the aggregates in general but specifically the clinging aggregates) one would have the cessation of suffering since the clinging aggregates are the base for the arising of craving/clinging as mentioned in nyanatiloka's dictionary in one of the entries following the entry for upadana.
chownah
What a Sutta says about khandhas without upadana, which are not dukkha?
SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta delineates "aggregates" and "clinging aggregates".
Clinging and craving are the same thing from Nyanatloka's dictionary.

SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth says that cessation of suffering comes from not craving.

Therefore those who have eradicated craving will have the cessation of suffering.....so....arahants (who have eradicated craving) will not suffer.

chownah

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Germann
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It is not said that they will not suffer if the functioning of khandhas continues.

Post by Germann » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:36 pm

chownah wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:35 pm
Germann wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:27 pm

What a Sutta says about khandhas without upadana, which are not dukkha?
SN 22.48 Khandha Sutta delineates "aggregates" and "clinging aggregates".
Clinging and craving are the same thing from Nyanatloka's dictionary.

SN 56.11 Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth says that cessation of suffering comes from not craving.

Therefore those who have eradicated craving will have the cessation of suffering.....so....arahants (who have eradicated craving) will not suffer.

chownah
It is not said that they will not suffer if the functioning of khandhas continues.

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