Arahant's suicide

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Germann
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Tamrashatiya school

Post by Germann »

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:37 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:44 am
Germann wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:30 pm

There is this phrase in Pali.

Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267

"sotapanna, sakadagami-anagami-(araha)3-khinasavapi"


note "3. VinA. omits"

Note: is not in the Vinaya. About Arahants-suicide written only in canonical Comments.
I do no understand what you are posting....making something bold and large does not help.

So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?
chownah
How can we trust Buddhagosa as an authority on Tripitaka though he wrote Visuddhimagga. He was a hindu scholar and philisopher. He wrote visuddimagga on an invitation. He is however noted to have departed from canonical texts. The period of mahavihara when he wrote visuddhimagga is in the 5th century A.D.
We can say otherwise: how can one trust the Mahaviharavasins school (Theravada school), if in Sthavira Mahayana (at the Abhayagiri school, at the Jetavania school) could not have such problems.

All three Sri Lankan schools developed on the basis of the Tamrashatiya school.

cookiemonster
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cookiemonster »

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:43 am
Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:14 am

In the Mahayana bodhisattva does not have to cling to.
The bodhisatta in the Pali texts is called "unenlightened".

If a bodhisattva does not cling and possess no residue in clinging, then they would not be "operating" in samsara, but would be completely emancipated in parinibbana.
If khandhas is dukkha in three times, and dukkha is a loss, why did Buddha continue dukkha, staying alive - when he was able to commit suicide?
IMO, he stayed alive as long as he had after his personal awakening, in order to elucidate the Dhamma which leads to arahatta and parinibbana in its various permutations to his disciples and to the world. Once the communication of the fullness of his teaching was complete, he passed away - at a place & time specifically chosen by him. In a sense, this could be considered a "suicide".

Other arahants also chose their passing, at a specific place, time, and method. They could choose to depart early, IMO because 1. they saw that they had also completed their work and teaching to their own disciples, and 2. they expressed compassion in this respect by choosing early to be be less of a physical burden to their supporters & the world.

chownah
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by chownah »

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 pm

If khandhas is dukkha in three times, and dukkha is a loss, why did Buddha continue dukkha, staying alive - when he was able to commit suicide?
Because the buddha did not suffer from dukkha.....and the buddha could have blissfull and joyous abiding anytime he wanted and for as long as he wanted. A better question is "why didn't the buddha just live out his life in that blissfull and joyous abiding?"....and the canonical answer to that (I think) is out of compassion.
chownah

chownah
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Re: See the Pali original

Post by chownah »

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:31 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:02 am
Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:16 am

The Pali original has this phrase. The information on Theravada.ru site is correct.
I don't know what you are talking about.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?....please respond to this....please answer my question.
chownah
It really is in the Commentary. See the Pali original.
Image
Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267
I don't understand the pali language and presenting it overly large does not help me to understand it.
chownah

sunnat
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by sunnat »

"... out of compassion." is the answer to many of these questions. What if he had choosen to commit suicide after having committed himself out of compassion to teach.? What sort of example is that

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SDC
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by SDC »

Due to the OP wishing to discuss Mahayana ideas, this thread has been moved to "Connections..."

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Germann
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According to the traditional Commentary on this Sutta (SN 54.9), some of the suicides were Arahants

Post by Germann »

chownah wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:51 am
Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:31 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:02 am

I don't know what you are talking about.
So....someone made up a story about what it says in some Commentary?....is that what you posted before?....please respond to this....please answer my question.
chownah
It really is in the Commentary. See the Pali original.
Image
Sarattha-ppakasini
Buddhaghosa,s commentary on the Sanyutta-Nikaya
edited by F.L.Woodward M.A. Vol.3 p. 267
I don't understand the pali language and presenting it overly large does not help me to understand it.
chownah
According to the traditional Commentary on this Sutta (SN 54.9), some of the suicides were Arahants.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Coëmgenu »

Germann wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:28 pm
If khandhas is dukkha in three times, and dukkha is a loss, why did Buddha continue dukkha, staying alive - when he was able to commit suicide?
He did. If you believe in the omniscience of the Buddha, and since you've identified yourself as a Mahāyānika (unless I'm quite wrong) we can also assume you do, then that means that the Buddha knew that eating that food would cause him to die.

If the Buddha is omniscient, then the Buddha's death can be considered a form of suicide.
justindesilva wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:37 am
How can we trust Buddhagosa as an authority on Tripitaka though he wrote Visuddhimagga. He was a hindu scholar and philisopher.
And the Buddha was a devout Manichaean.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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cappuccino
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cappuccino »

Buddha didn't commit suicide

he entered the dimension of Nirvana

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Coëmgenu »

Who changed the title of my post to "arahant's suicide?" That's weird. I bet it was my old frenemy: retrofuturist.
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:55 am
Buddha didn't commit suicide

he entered the dimension of Nirvana
If you believe in the Buddha's omniscience, that means that the Buddha voluntarily ended the existence of his material body. That's unavoidable IMO, whether or not he entered into parinibbāna. If you don't believe in the omniscience of the Buddha, that's not a problem for you.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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cappuccino
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cappuccino »

the bursting of a bubble isn't a crime

however, if you burn someone alive, that's serious stuff

which is to say, it depends

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:31 am
the bursting of a bubble isn't a crime

however, if you burn someone alive, that's serious stuff

which is to say, it depends
In keeping with the newly found suicide (unwilling) theme, if an arhats kills himself, is it even a suicide?

When Migalaṇḍika killed many of the assemble, was it murder? Were they arhats?
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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cappuccino
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: if an arhats kills himself, is it even a suicide?
losing a sandcastle, or losing a castle

we react differently

because they're indeed different
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:15 am, edited 6 times in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: When Migalaṇḍika killed many of the assemble, was it murder? Were they arhats?
definitely bad karma

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