Arahant's suicide

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Germann
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Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm

Is Arahant's suicide a GOOD completion of the Path? If it is not, then why Arahant is not the Mahayana Bodhisattva (placing Benefit-For-The Other above Benefit-For-Itself)? Suicide frees Arahant from two types of dukkha: dukkhadukkhatā and saṅkhāradukkhatā. The continuation of life is the continuation of dukkha.

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robertk
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by robertk » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 pm

Arahats would not commit suicide.

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mikenz66
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 pm

Does this count as suicide?
While sat on one side venerable Dabba Mallaputta said this to the Gracious One: “Now is the time for my Complete Emancipation, Fortunate One.”

“Now is the time for whatever you are thinking, Dabba.”

Then venerable Dabba Mallaputta, after rising from his seat, worshipping and circumambulating the Gracious One, after going up into the sky, and sitting in cross-legged posture in the air, in the firmament, entering the fire-element, and emerging, attained Complete Emancipation.
...
https://suttacentral.net/ud8.9/en/anandajoti
See also: https://suttacentral.net/ud8.10/en/anandajoti
See also this parallel: https://suttacentral.net/sa-2.15/en/bingenheimer
And Bhikkhu Analayo's article: "Dabba's Self-cremation in the Saṃyukta-āgama", Buddhist Studies Review, 2012, vol. 29 no. 2 pp. 153–174.


:heart:
Mike

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Germann
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dukkhadukkhatā and saṅkhāradukkhatā

Post by Germann » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:36 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 pm
Arahats would not commit suicide.
Why doesn't Arahant stop two kinds of dukkha if he can do it?

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Germann
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the Elder drew his knife

Post by Germann » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:42 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 pm
Does this count as suicide?
While sat on one side venerable Dabba Mallaputta said this to the Gracious One: “Now is the time for my Complete Emancipation, Fortunate One.”

“Now is the time for whatever you are thinking, Dabba.”

Then venerable Dabba Mallaputta, after rising from his seat, worshipping and circumambulating the Gracious One, after going up into the sky, and sitting in cross-legged posture in the air, in the firmament, entering the fire-element, and emerging, attained Complete Emancipation.
...
https://suttacentral.net/ud8.9/en/anandajoti
See also: https://suttacentral.net/ud8.10/en/anandajoti
See also this parallel: https://suttacentral.net/sa-2.15/en/bingenheimer
And Bhikkhu Analayo's article: "Dabba's Self-cremation in the Saṃyukta-āgama", Buddhist Studies Review, 2012, vol. 29 no. 2 pp. 153–174.


:heart:
Mike
It is more like reaching the Body of Light in Dzogchen. Suicide is when immediately after becoming Arahant "the Elder drew his knife" and deliverance from all types of dukkha comes.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... /04-11.htm

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DooDoot
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:56 am

Germann wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm
Suicide frees Arahant from two types of dukkha: dukkhadukkhatā and saṅkhāradukkhatā.
An arahant is already free of the above dukkha.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:13 am

On Suicide
35. On Suicide
“It has been said by the Blessed One, ‘A monk should not try to commit suicide [throw himself down from a precipice]; whoever does so should be dealt with according to the rule.’ ¹¹ Yet, on the other hand, you say that on whatever topic he was addressing the monks, he always, and with various similes, exhorted them to bring about the destruction of birth, old age, disease, and death, and whosoever overcame them he honoured with high praise.”

“O king, it is because an Arahant is of great benefit to beings that he laid down that prohibition. One who has reached the goal is like a boat to carry people over the floods of sensuality, desire for rebirth, personality belief and ignorance; like a mighty rain-cloud he fills their minds with satisfaction and he is a guide to those who are lost. Out of compassion for living beings the Blessed One said, ‘A monk is not to commit suicide.’ And what is the reason the Blessed One urged us to put an end to birth, old age, and death? Because of the limitless nature of the suffering of the round of rebirths the Blessed One, out of compassion for beings, urged them in many ways, with various similes to free themselves from the round of rebirths.”

11. Vin. iii. 74, 82 (an offence of wrong doing).
Again:

4. “Does he who will not be reborn feel any painful feeling?”
“He may feel physical pain, O king, but not mental pain.”

“If he feels painful feelings then why doesn’t he just die and attain the extinction of grasping, and put an end to suffering?”
“The Arahant has no fondness for or aversion to life. He does not shake down the unripe fruit but awaits the time of its maturity. For this was said by Venerable Sāriputta, the Buddha’s chief disciple:

“It is not death, nor life I cherish;
As the hireling his wage, so I bide my time.
It is not death nor life I long for,
Mindful and clearly comprehending, I bide my time.”¹

1. Thag. 1002, 1003.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:16 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:09 pm
Does this count as suicide?
No. Venerable Ānanda also attained parinibbāna in this way. Knowing that the end of their lifespan was due, they thought not to give trouble to others. Ānanda did not want any to dispute over his remains. These Arahants therefore used their mystic powers to perform self-cremation at the moment of the expiration of their natural life-span.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:40 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 pm
Arahats would not commit suicide.
:goodpost:

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Germann
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:56 am
Germann wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm
Suicide frees Arahant from two types of dukkha: dukkhadukkhatā and saṅkhāradukkhatā.
An arahant is already free of the above dukkha.
Only from the suffering of change (vipariṇāmadukkhatā), but not free from the suffering of disease, pain, physical discomfort (dukkhadukkhatā) and he is not free from the suffering of the conditioned state (saṅkhāradukkhatā).

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Germann
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 am

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:40 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 pm
Arahats would not commit suicide.
:goodpost:

:woohoo:
Why doesn't Arahant get rid of all kinds of dukkha, what can he do by suicide? Because the personal good (the absence of any dukkha) is not the ultimate, supreme good, is it not?

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Bundokji
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Bundokji » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:18 am

Germann wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:11 am
Only from the suffering of change (vipariṇāmadukkhatā), but not free from the suffering of disease, pain, physical discomfort (dukkhadukkhatā) and he is not free from the suffering of the conditioned state (saṅkhāradukkhatā).
You might be equating the experience of pain with mental stress caused by pain? From what i know, Arahants are free from the later, not the former.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Germann
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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Germann » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:27 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:13 am
One who has reached the goal is like a boat to carry people over the floods of sensuality, desire for rebirth, personality belief and ignorance; like a mighty rain-cloud he fills their minds with satisfaction and he is a guide to those who are lost.
Arahant (who is not lost) is the object of compassion? The ban explains the inadmissibility of suicide for an ordinary person. If the Arahant doesn't have to stay alive to help others - like the Вodhisattva in the Mahayana.

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Germann
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Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by Germann » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:31 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:18 am
Germann wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:11 am
Only from the suffering of change (vipariṇāmadukkhatā), but not free from the suffering of disease, pain, physical discomfort (dukkhadukkhatā) and he is not free from the suffering of the conditioned state (saṅkhāradukkhatā).
You might be equating the experience of pain with mental stress caused by pain? From what i know, Arahants are free from the later, not the former.
Yes. And because the physical pain is dukkha for sure, then prolonging the life of the ilness body, the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta acted as a bodhisattva in the Mahayana: put the welfare of others (the need for training in the Dhamma) above personal benefit (immediate deliverance from all kinds of dukkha).

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Re: Arahant's suicide

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:37 am

Germann wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:40 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:25 pm
Arahats would not commit suicide.
:goodpost:

:woohoo:
Why doesn't Arahant get rid of all kinds of dukkha, what can he do by suicide? Because the personal good (the absence of any dukkha) is not the ultimate, supreme good, is it not?





Good?


“Phutthassa lokadhammehi cittam yassa na kampati” The Arahant's mind remains unshaken.


Mangala Sutta

The Arahant's mind remains unshaken by the good [or whatever], whether it be ultimate, supreme or personal.




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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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