Rebirth Deniers
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:05 pm
I keep seeing the term "rebirth denier" on these forums and wonder if anyone here who has used the term would kindly define it for me?
A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of TheravÄda Buddhism
https://www.dhammawheel.com/
I'm not wanting to talk at cross purposes, I'm wanting to get clarification and perhaps see if, going forward, we can choose words carefully (skillful speech and all that) knowing more precisely what they mean to those conversing in this space.retrofuturist wrote: I think to do that, firstly someone would need to define "rebirth", and specifically address the question of what is "re'd". Short of that level of enquiry, I can just imagine a lot of talking at cross purposes (which is quite possibly what you're hoping to address through this topic?).
I don't know that we need to bring the Pali into this, though I wouldn't mind seeing such a list.It would also be worth someone finding specific examples where the Buddha specifically used the (pali equivalent of the term) "rebirth" rather than alternative words and phrases.
The onus on doing this, however, lies with those using the term "rebirth denier".
Yes, that's what I meant. Apologies if my clumsy language led to us talking at cross purposes.nowheat wrote:I'm not wanting to talk at cross purposes, I'm wanting to get clarification and perhaps see if, going forward, we can choose words carefully (skillful speech and all that) knowing more precisely what they mean to those conversing in this space.
It might not seem relevant at first glance, but the Buddha had many ways of speaking about becoming, being, existence and birth, and the term "rebirth" often gets used (crudely?) as a catch-all for many of the Buddha's expressions. If we're going to get at precisely what people mean by "rebirth denier", we're going to need to precisely get at what they mean by "rebirth".nowheat wrote:I don't know that we need to bring the Pali into this, though I wouldn't mind seeing such a list.
Thanks, Jack but I don't think it's that obvious.BlackBird wrote:I think a context here is important. Those who follow the Dhamma and do not believe that the Buddha taught postmortem continuance are a very distinct minority, a view and idea within Buddhism which has only cropped up very recently. Thus to the vast majority of practitioners - There's probably a bit of xenophobia towards those who do not ascribe to postmortem continuance. Wherever you have such a polarizing topic there is a need for a term, to define your adversaries position. Rebirth denial is the obvious choice, it even has the inference of being a close relative (in terms of logic) to holocaust denial.
metta
Jack
Hi Retroretrofuturist wrote:Greetings Blackbird,
Your comments raise a few questions...
Is a "Rebirth Denier" someone who denies the Buddha taught post-mortem continuance, or who does not believe personally in post-mortem continuance despite what the suttas say?
What logic is used in the instance of "Holocaust denial" and how is that analogous to "Rebirth denial"?
You speak of the need to "define your adversaries position"... but be careful not to define straw-men in the process!
Metta,
Retro.
I'm probably not the best person to answer that, since it's not a view I share and I'm not a "rebirth denier" (though I was once called a crypto-annihilationist by a bigot who couldn't understand my views on post-mortem continuance or comments such as the one in my signature from Bhikkhu Nanananda )BlackBird wrote:1. Could be both, could it not? I must admit I have never seen an instance of the latter, is their a brief summary of their reasoning?
OK, I see your perspective a little more clearly now. Indeed, even the above "explanation" (which is one of the better ones going around) invovles ignoring, or manipulating a lot of sutta evidence."There is a lot of evidence of the holocaust too, but it doesn't stop people from denying it happened."
It's just I've seen it done before ("crypto-annihilationist", remember ) so I'm mindful to encourage people to speak accurately, without prejudice, without straw-men and without broad-brush generalizations.3. Perhaps I am building up a straw man argument, perhaps you are right, time will tell I guess.
not necessarily, it depends on the use, and what it is trying to prove, or in some cases do.kayy wrote:oh dear.
I think it's worth being very careful indeed if one decides to step into the stormy territory of drawing comparisons with Hitler and the Holocaust!
can you define the term 'rebirth denier' and 'rebirth fanatic' can you kindly explain how denial of rebirth is not delusion in your view?vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
I am a rebirth denier and I am free of that delusion. Perhaps the "rebirth fanatics" would kindly explain how belief in rebirth differs from a delusion.
Best wishes, Vincent.
for me it is the complete denial of rebirth as the Buddha taught it, siding on either nihilistic or eternalist views, and including a lesson learnt cycle of rebirth.nowheat wrote:I keep seeing the term "rebirth denier" on these forums and wonder if anyone here who has used the term would kindly define it for me?