Re: Form is emptiness
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:37 pm
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If all dhammas are empty of independent existence, it would mean that when a dhamma has all its links to other dhammas severed, that dhamma is annihilated. This in turn would mean that regarding the twelve links of dependent arising, when you break all the twelve links, you will be annihilated.
Are Theravadins taking a psychological/spiritual approach and ignoring this teaching?
Sunyata is a Mahayana development, and rather different in scope to teachings on anatta/sunnata in the Pali suttas.
The emptiness in the sutas of the Pali Canon is an emptiness from oneself / one’s own, the termination of the appropriation of something. For example:
Unlikely.Does any Theravadin here believe that the Mahayana Suttras are the words of the Buddha?
Yes, "emptiness" is more like an adjective than a noun, so "form is empty" conveys it better. Or you could saychownah wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:11 am Perhaps it is a matter of english:
If you say "form is emptiness", form and emptiness are both nouns. Usually the opinion is that nouns are things and two things are either the same or they are different. If form and emptiness are the same thing then why have two terms?.....why not just say "emptiness" where every you say "form".....like instead of saying "when the eye and forms and eye consciousness arise together there is contact" you would say "when the eye and emptiness and eye consciousness arise together there is contact".
On the other hand if you say "form is empty" then form is a noun and empty is an adjective which describes a characteristic of form.......I think this makes more sense (or at least from the usual theravada perspective I think it does).
And....to be more specific.....I think the suttas indicate that "form is empty of self" which I think is a very good indication of how theravada gives importance to the idea of things being empty.
chownah
Actually, "emptiness" is exactly a noun in english.....the word to use as an adjective is "empty"....like happy is an adjective while happiness is a noun and foolish is an adjective while foolishness is a noun.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:30 amYes, "emptiness" is more like an adjective than a noun, so "form is empty" conveys it better. Or you could saychownah wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:11 am Perhaps it is a matter of english:
If you say "form is emptiness", form and emptiness are both nouns. Usually the opinion is that nouns are things and two things are either the same or they are different. If form and emptiness are the same thing then why have two terms?.....why not just say "emptiness" where every you say "form".....like instead of saying "when the eye and forms and eye consciousness arise together there is contact" you would say "when the eye and emptiness and eye consciousness arise together there is contact".
On the other hand if you say "form is empty" then form is a noun and empty is an adjective which describes a characteristic of form.......I think this makes more sense (or at least from the usual theravada perspective I think it does).
And....to be more specific.....I think the suttas indicate that "form is empty of self" which I think is a very good indication of how theravada gives importance to the idea of things being empty.
chownah
"the nature of form is emptiness".
Semantics aside, I think the Phena Sutta would agree with you...
Metta,Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately.
The Phena Sutta passage has a very similar feel to the first part of the Heart Sutra, which describes the emptiness of the aggregates.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:08 am Greetings,
Semantics aside, I think the Phena Sutta would agree with you...Metta,Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately.
Paul.
INdeed, and I think that SN 35.85 Suñña Sutta: Empty (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) explains further that:retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:08 am Greetings,
Semantics aside, I think the Phena Sutta would agree with you...Metta,Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately.
Paul.
chownahThen Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"
"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
"The ear is empty...
"The nose is empty...
"The tongue is empty...
"The body is empty...
"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."
Hope things are going better for you.ShanYin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:41 am I feel like whatever is bothering me and causing me suffering is my lack of spiritual realization. Of course my feelings are alot like the hinderances. Anxiety, remourse, restlessness, sense desire and illwill ect. Well those are what I am experiencing. Well I am certainly getting answers to my questions.
I think it's from the Heart Sutra, and refers to sunyata.chownah wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:20 amHope things are going better for you.ShanYin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:41 am I feel like whatever is bothering me and causing me suffering is my lack of spiritual realization. Of course my feelings are alot like the hinderances. Anxiety, remourse, restlessness, sense desire and illwill ect. Well those are what I am experiencing. Well I am certainly getting answers to my questions.
Can you find the exact place where you read it that "form is emptiness" and post that reference here? Could it be that you have not remembered it accurately and what it actualy being said is "form is empty"?
chownah