Is that from the Heart Sutra? And what do you think the correct meaning is here?
Note that the Heart Sutra also says that emptiness is form, which I understand to mean that emptiness is not a "thing", just the nature of the aggregates.
Is that from the Heart Sutra? And what do you think the correct meaning is here?
The Heart Sutra is probably the most widely know and studied of the Mahāyāna sutras thanks to its concise brevity and profundity. It wonderfully recasts core teachings from the Pali suttas within a Mahāyāna frame story involving the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara. Mahāyāna students may be shocked to learn that the Dhamma of their beloved Heart Sutra is largely recast Hinayāna, ur, Pali Buddhism. That, however, may very well be the case. Please bear with me.
I will demonstrate the simple facts, without any argument, using a simple method. I will juxtapose the main sections of the Heart Sutra with Pali passages that sometimes say the same things and other times come pretty close.
You can do the rest.
(continues at the link)
http://www.liberationpark.org/study/pdf ... ly_bsm.pdf
Possibly - I've not studied Mahayana doctrine in order to know. Where I differ from some, perhaps, is that I steadfastly insist of taking the suttas on their own merits, and not seeing them translated through later frameworks or vādas, and that includes Theravāda's commentarial and Abhidhammic frameworks too. On a related note, in "The Heretic Sage", ven. Nanananda is quoted as saying...samsarictravelling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:12 am When retrofuturist talks about his view of anatta, it sounds like prajnaparamita doctrine, that all conditioned things are just mental constructs.
Retrofuturist, please forgive me if I incorrectly, untruthfully, found similarity in your anatta doctrine with (my interpretation of) the prajnaparamita doctrine.
Ani Sutta wrote: Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
I cried when I first read Ani Sutta!
Ani Sutta wrote:
Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited.
Emptiness
We come now to the quality of emptiness. Firstly, it is of some significance to note that although the adjectival noun suññata (Sanskrit: sunyata), or “emptiness,” is used in the Theravada scriptures, it is far outweighed by its humble cousin, the adjective suñña, “empty.” In later, Northern Buddhist traditions, sunyata took on not only a central position in the teachings on liberation (for example in the Prajña Paramita Sutras, the Heart Sutra, and the Vajra Sutra) and the Middle Way (as in Nagarjuna’s Madhyamaka philosophy, uniting emptiness and causality), but it also took on the attributes of some kind of quasi-mystical substance or realm—not intentionally or doctrinally even, but more through a subtle and unconscious reification. It became something that is a nothing, that then was worshiped and deified as a universal panacea.
This is not to say that all such teachings on emptiness are false or useless—not at all. It is just to say that, like any verbal formulation of Dhamma, if grasped incorrectly they can obstruct rather than aid progress on the path. If the concept of emptiness is understood and used as a skillful means, it is clear that it could not be any kind of thing-in-itself. Any tendency to incline the attitude in that direction would thus be seen as falling wide of the mark.
"If a person were to say that suññata is a material element, his or her friends would die laughing. Some people would say that it is an immaterial or formless element, and here the Noble Ones (ariya) would die laughing. Voidness is neither a material nor an immaterial element, but is a third kind of element that lies beyond the ken of ordinary people. The Buddha called it “quenching element” or “cessation element” (nirodha-dhatu).
The words “material element” (vatthu-dhatu) or “form element” (rupa-dhatu) refer to materiality in visible forms, sounds, odors, tastes, or tactile objects. “Formless element” (arupa-dhatu) refers to the mind and heart, to mental processes, and to the thoughts and experiences that arise in the mind. There is only one kind of element not included in these two categories, an element that is the complete antithesis and annihilation of them all.
Consequently, the Buddha sometimes called it “coolness element” (Nibbana-dhatu), sometimes “quenching element” (nirodha-dhatu), and sometimes “deathless element” (amatadhatu)."
~ Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree
In the Pali scriptures suñña simply means “empty.” It describes the quality of absence—an absence contained within a particular defining form, rather than some kind of absolute value. Every space has its poetics: this personality is empty of self, this glass is empty of water, this room is empty of people—there is a definite voidness in some respects, but it is also shaped by its context. The pair of silences during the opening bars of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony are just silence, but the particular poetry of those silences is shaped by the notes before and after.
Without the glass there would not be any emptiness; without the other musical notes those moments would not be silent—that is to say, the emptiness only exists in relationship to its vessel, whatever that may be: a personality, a glass, a room, a musical phrase. It’s just a way of speaking about form and space using relative language.
Thus from the Theravada point of view, the concept of emptiness is quite prosaic. It lacks the intrinsic mystical quality imputed to it in some of the Northern Buddhist scriptures. However, it becomes more meaningful in terms of liberation as it is almost always used in the context of “empty of self and the property of a self.” If that absence is recognized then the heart is certainly inclining to awakening.
The environment of pure awareness is cultivated through a realization of emptiness; it then embodies that characteristic as a result of its perfection. Radiance is another of the principal qualities that manifests as that knowing is purified.
Bhikkhus, there are these four radiances—what are the four? The radiance of the moon, the radiance of the sun, the radiance of fire, the radiance of wisdom (paññapabha)… Bhikkhus, among these four, the radiance of wisdom is indeed the most excellent.
~ Anguttara Nikaya 4.142
These three attributes—knowing, emptiness, and the radiant mind—weave through each other and are mutually reflective and supportive. In a way, they are like the fluidity, wetness, and coolness of a glass of water: three qualities that are distinct yet inseparable.
Continues at the link
https://www.lionsroar.com/like-oil-and-water/
I just made an addition to my original post on prajnaparamita, which I will repost here in whole, minusing the copy & paste of the Majjhima Nikaya 60 section:retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:33 am Greetings,
Possibly - I've not studied Mahayana doctrine in order to know. Where I differ from some, perhaps, is that I steadfastly insist of taking the suttas on their own merits, and not seeing them translated through later frameworks or vādas, and that includes Theravāda's commentarial and Abhidhammic frameworks too. On a related note, in "The Heretic Sage", ven. Nanananda is quoted as saying...samsarictravelling wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:12 am When retrofuturist talks about his view of anatta, it sounds like prajnaparamita doctrine, that all conditioned things are just mental constructs.
Retrofuturist, please forgive me if I incorrectly, untruthfully, found similarity in your anatta doctrine with (my interpretation of) the prajnaparamita doctrine.
...
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
Metta,
Paul.
It is a mistake to equate "ground of being" with "ultimate reality". Why can't there be an ultimate reality without it being the ground of being?Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:59 am As I see it sunyata is basically a Mahayana development of themes in the suttas. Anatta and sunna are relevant, but I also see a strong connection with iddapaccayatta (conditionality), which is re-expressed as phenomena lacking independent existence, or not existing "from their own side".
There has been a tendency to reify sunyata as a "ground of being" or "ultimate reality", though IMO this idea is contradicted by teachings like "emptiness of emptiness", and the line "Emptiness is only form" in the Heart Sutra.
I think "reality" would be quite sufficient here. Or "things as they really are".Sherab wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:35 amIt is a mistake to equate "ground of being" with "ultimate reality". Why can't there be an ultimate reality without it being the ground of being?Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:59 am As I see it sunyata is basically a Mahayana development of themes in the suttas. Anatta and sunna are relevant, but I also see a strong connection with iddapaccayatta (conditionality), which is re-expressed as phenomena lacking independent existence, or not existing "from their own side".
There has been a tendency to reify sunyata as a "ground of being" or "ultimate reality", though IMO this idea is contradicted by teachings like "emptiness of emptiness", and the line "Emptiness is only form" in the Heart Sutra.
So, its not form that is "emptiness"....it is also feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness.....its the cinging aggregates that are "emptiness".....in the theravada it is said that the clining aggregats are empty of self.....isn't that right?Listen, Sariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness.
Emptiness is not other than form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, mental
formations, and consciousness.
See SN35.85, where the khandhas are sunna, empty of self. This sutta has been referenced previously in the thread.chownah wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:03 am From the heart sutra:So, its not form that is "emptiness"....it is also feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness.....its the cinging aggregates that are "emptiness".....in the theravada it is said that the clining aggregats are empty of self.....isn't that right?Listen, Sariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness.
Emptiness is not other than form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, mental
formations, and consciousness.
So, I went out and actually found and brought a heart sutra quote containing "emptiness".....can someone find and bring a theravada quote which contains "emptiness"?
chownah
Yes, Heart Sutra.
The sutta you bring I read when you brought it before. It does not contain the word "emptiness". Saying that something is emptiness is not the same as saying that something is empty. The suttas are full of places that talk about things being empty and primarily (there are exceptions) the talk is clearly explained to mean empty of self. There are quite a few suttas which explicitly say this. The only place I have seen the term "emptiness" in a sutta is in one that talks about the emptiness release or somthing like that but even this is explained in term of being empty of self as I remember.Dinsdale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:36 amSee SN35.85, where the khandhas are sunna, empty of self. This sutta has been referenced previously in the thread.chownah wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:03 am From the heart sutra:So, its not form that is "emptiness"....it is also feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness.....its the cinging aggregates that are "emptiness".....in the theravada it is said that the clining aggregats are empty of self.....isn't that right?Listen, Sariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is not other than emptiness.
Emptiness is not other than form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, mental
formations, and consciousness.
So, I went out and actually found and brought a heart sutra quote containing "emptiness".....can someone find and bring a theravada quote which contains "emptiness"?
chownah
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.85/en/sujato
And yes, the Heart Sutra describes the emptiness of all five aggregates, among other things.