Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:57 am

Vincent wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:23 pm
The point I'm trying to make is that a sense of self is required at a fundamental level in order to distinguish between yourself and, for example, the chair you are sitting on.
About "perception", the Pali suttas do not appear to say a "self" perceives or distinguishes. For example:
And why, bhikkhus, do you call it perception? ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. And what does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Who, O Lord, feels [and perceives]?

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels [and perceives].' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling [and perception]; and feeling is the condition of craving.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
The Pali suttas appear to say "perception" or "distinguishing" occurs before the arising of 'self-view'; which may sound counter-intuitive. For example:
.... assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt [and perceived] born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication [of self] is born of that.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Vincent
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Vincent » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:19 am

Thanks for all your responses, Nicolas, Peter, and DooDoot, but it would take me an awful lot of time to address in sufficient detail every point you've all made, so I will attempt to summarize my rationalistic and sensible view, as follows.

(1) It's very obvious that nothing we perceive with our senses is permanent, including our senses that contribute towards the perception, and including our bodies that are essential for all of our perception. To create confusion by statements such as,'things can both exist and not exist', and then have to explain in a Sutta that the term 'not exist' refers to 'permanent existence', and the term 'exist' refer to 'temporary existence', seems just a lot of baggage. Perhaps this is the reason why I'm reluctant to wade through all 10,000 suttas. There's so much repetition and explanations of the obvious, but perhaps this is needed for some people, such as the 'run of the mill' types, so perhaps I shouldn't be too critical. ;)

(2) The other issue is the precise meaning and definition of the key words we use, such as 'self'. The term 'self' is very broad in meaning. It includes factors such as self-esteem, confidence, importance, cleverness, personality, likes and dislikes, types of desires and motivations, and so on. Some people, such as Kings in the past, even thought they were as powerful as Gods, which one might describe as having an extremely inflated ego.

None of these factors are necessary for the basic perception of things that surround us, and the continuous awareness, through a background of feeling, that we are a living organism with an identity. The sense of 'self' is a fundamental requirement for all perception. However, that does not mean that every time you perceive something, or do something, like walking, or scratching your head, you need to think and ask yourself, 'is it me who is walking?', or, 'is it my head I am scratching?' The feeling that it is your body, including hands, arms and legs, is a continuous part of awareness, when you are awake and not sleeping.

However, the focus of that awareness, or the degree of that awareness, can be changed if one is motivated to do so. One can sit down and focus one's attention on a candle flame, or slowly breathe in and out whilst focusing one's attention on the breath, or a part of one's nostril. But, ask yourself, what is it that is focusing on the candle flame or on your own breath. Surely the answer is obvious. It is your 'self'.
It's not your ego, or your vanity, or your pride. It's your plain, humble, self.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:39 am

That would be our being in the continuous flow of reality, but even referring to this is already taking two steps too many. If one refers to this being, one already created a self. Like I tried to explain in the chapter I posted, even the self can not be identified, as we need everything to exist. Just like the flower. So we can not truly identify this self, as it does not exist upon itself. It is only a mental fabrication. One tries to identify and define one's self because one still believes that something can exist upon itself and can be viewed upon from this self. There is only the interdependent moment of the now in spacetime, and every thought about it is an attempt to give meaning to it. One can see it as an attempt to temporarily disconnect from spacetime, to look on it from outside of spacetime, to try and define something, as could it be defined as an independent object. There is only the universe looking at the universe. Where would this self be?

Underneath is a copy paste of chapter 6, which might help in understanding this.
Consciousness
As described earlier, 'I' is a word that refers to the ego. The ego is a bundle of desires you identify with. Sensory perceptions create a feeling; physically or mentally (sensation). Your desire for sensory perceptions and meaning is the cause of emotions. Your desires arise from your consciousness, after contact between your senses and stimuli from reality, because you identify with sensory perceptions. Consciousness is the capacity for perception; whatever the nature, content or scope of the observation is. These include; awareness, sensations, impressions, interpretations, thoughts, ideas, emotions, feelings, desires, memories and intentions. Consciousness is perception as such.

Consciousness needs a reality in order to exist. A part of reality is observed through the senses. Light, molecules/ substances, skin deformation, and vibrations are stimuli from reality that can be perceived by your senses. These stimuli can also provide mental objects in combination with your mind and your imagination. Thoughts, ideas, and memories are mental objects and an observation from your mind, which beholds the ability to imagine and to remember.

The perception of stimuli from reality is influenced by neural processes. Neurologists believe that neurons (nerve cells) of the prefrontal and parietal cerebral cortex send information back to the cerebral cortex through the thalamus and that this process makes it possible to experience consciousness. Nerve cells in the nervous system and the brain are connected by means of synapses. The conduction of the stimulus between nerve cells, via the synapses, is done by neurotransmitters. Well known neurotransmitters are; amino acids (group), serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenaline.

First there must be consciousness, only then can a concept of consciousness arise. The mind is an instrument of consciousness through which thoughts are perceived. That which perceives this concept of consciousness is consciousness: that is you, and not the concept that you have of consciousness. In other words; from your consciousness you can not conceptualize consciousness, for you are consciousness. Consciousness cannot be conceptualized in any way, because it precedes and surpasses all concepts.

We thus perceive reality, via stimuli, within ourselves. However, we, ourselves are consciousness. As a result, we are not 'selves', but only reality. You can not explain yourself. This, of course, does not mean that what is perceived can have no meaning. As described before; conceptualizing is meaningful by definition.

Summarizing the above; you are consciousness, so you perceive reality (through stimuli) within yourself. Since, however, you are consciousness and only perceive, you thus perceive reality as yourself. If you perceive reality as yourself, you are not yourself, but only reality. So there is no self, but only reality.

Understanding the above creates a radical change in the way reality is perceived. You are aware that you are the awareness of reality and are not separate from it. You are everything that happens in your environment and body, because you perceive this. This gives you a deeper connection with people, animals, plants and things from your environment, which is expressed in a (deep) sense of sympathy, compassion or loving kindness. This feeling arises because you no longer perceive from your person, but from reality, and realize that everything from reality is connected with your body and each other. This experiential knowledge, together with the extinguishing (enlightening) of your egocentric desires and emotions, is called Nirvana in Buddhism and is the final stage of the experiential doctrine of Buddhism. To fully understand the above, you need insight into the rest of reality.
Also a copy paste of chapter 10 to help you let go of the thing we call our body.
The dependent origin of the body

As described in the previous chapter, life consists of one or more cells. The human body consists of about one hundred trillion cells. These cells form tissues that make up the organs. The organs form organ systems that work together to perform a certain task. The human body consists of eleven organ systems; the skin, the skeleton, the musculature, the hormone system, the reproductive system, the respiratory system, the blood vessel system, the nervous system, the lymph system, the digestive system and the secretion system. The human organism is the collaboration between all cells, organs and organ systems from which it exists.
The senses from which we perceive are organs and these organs are part of the human organism. Signals from the environment are converted to sight, smell, taste, hearing, thoughts and feeling through our eyes, nose, tongue, ears, and nerves in the brain. Through the nerves, in our skin, we can feel, by touching a stimulus from the environment with one or more nerves. In addition, through the nerves that run through many organs in our body, we can feel these organs from the nervous system (sense of touch). For example, if we have eaten something bad, the nerves around the bowel release certain neurotransmitters. These neurotransmitters are converted into an unpleasant feeling in our brains, which makes you feel your bowel. However, we are not our senses, but only the conscious experience of the contact of the senses with a stimulus from reality. The combination of senses allows you to interpret what you experience differently than it is.

Another example is when you inhale strongly through your nose. You might experience a smell, and feel your nose through the surrounding nerves in the skin of your nose. Because you experience both the smell and the skin around the nose at the same time, you think you are the nose that smells something. However, you are only aware of the smell and the awareness of the shape of the nose. You are not the bowel you feel, but only the consciousness of feeling (sense of touch) your bowel. Nor are you the body that you perceive.
For example; when you look in the mirror, you see a human body. You start to identify yourself with that body, because you perceive from that body, as if it exists on its own. You, therefore, perceive the body separately from its environment through your six senses. While the reality is that you only feel this body from your sense of touch and see the light that reflects in your eye lenses. What you perceive, however, is only the perception of your six senses and not something that is separate from it. Your body is part of the universe and nature. Through the mirror you are only the sight; because through the eyes, the light is received from a human body in the reflection of the mirror. From the combination of the light stimuli that your eyes perceive, your sense of touch and your intellectual sensation (thoughts), you create a desire for meaning in what you perceive, whereby you identify yourself with this; in this case your body. As if you own it. As if it exists on its own. As if it were you.

If you make a fist with your hand, you feel and see that the fingers are moving and you are aware of the intention to move the fingers. But this doesn't mean that you are the fingers that move. Nor are you the body that moves. You think you are your fingers or that they belong to you because you see them, feel them and you can make them move. But, you can also see, feel and move water. Then you think you are the fingers or that they belong to you because they are attached to your body. However, if you have to describe exactly what your body is, you will come to the conclusion that your body is the total of cells it consists of. If you are then asked how you know that your body is the total of cells from which it consists, you will come to the conclusion that you perceive that through your senses.

Because of your senses, you are aware of the fingers and the body, but you are or do not possess these fingers or that body. You perceive an object from the senses, through which your consciousness is formed, that you name as your body. Without senses there would be no 'body', you would not perceive a body, and without a body, you would have no senses. Your body is thus mutually dependent on your senses.

The intention to move the fingers, or the body, arises from the desire for a pleasant feeling, the aversion of an unpleasant feeling, or to give meaning to life. The intention to do something, and the movement that may arise from it, is part of consciousness; it is something that you perceive.

From your delusion or ignorance, you try to give meaning to reality by filling in reality with concepts from your identified self.
Then one arrives at a point where one has to let go of the belief in free will, if one believes in such a thing. A snippet from Chapter 1.
Thoughts arise through the sensory input from the five classical senses in combination with the mind (thinking ability), which beholds the ability to remember and imagine. You cannot consciously create thoughts yourself. You think something about what you perceive through your ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and sense of touch. First there was your environment, and then came your thoughts. This means that input from your environment created your thoughts, you didn’t create your environment through your thoughts. So, the first thought is always something you experience. We can ‘guide’ our thinking, which is a coherent set of thoughts, by shifting our focus or by changing from environment. Also, you can consciously elaborate on thoughts, as we have the ability to remember words we hear or read and put them in a logical order, by asking yourself; ‘why you think something,’ for example. This is our thinking ability.

Imagine for a moment that you receive a cup of tea. You do not know what the temperature of the tea is, so you take a sip of the tea. You notice that it has just finished cooking and immediately think: 'hot'. You will not think 'cold'. You use words, through thought, which already existed in your environment, as you read or heard them somewhere. If you make new words, you use letters from an existing alphabet. If you make a new alphabet, you use your imagination to make a variation on an existing alphabet. Through our imagination we can imagine things we derive from our perception of our environment, for example; a unicorn. Your imagination can take you anywhere, as images can be derived from images, instead of from something out of the objective reality.
I can´t find a way to upload a PDF on the forum. I will leave a message here when I have the website back up. Could take a while. I wish you all a nice weekend!

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:58 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:39 am
That would be our being in the continuous flow of reality, but even referring to this is already taking two steps too many. If one refers to this being, one already created a self. Like I tried to explain in the chapter I posted, even the self can not be identified, as we need everything to exist. Just like the flower. So we can not truly identify this self, as it does not exist upon itself. It is only a mental fabrication. One tries to identify and define one's self because one still believes that something can exist upon itself and can be viewed upon from this self. There is only the interdependent moment of the now in spacetime, and every thought about it is an attempt to give meaning to it. One can see it as an attempt to temporarily disconnect from spacetime, to look on it from outside of spacetime, to try and define something, as could it be defined as an independent object. There is only the universe looking at the universe. Where would this self be?
are you saying that if you are aware, you actually are not aware?

i think i get what you say, it makes sense that you need wait till fetters arise and then eradicate them. But reading what you wrote, the destination of your view doesn't lead to such eradication, i afraid.

maybe have some word about things what arise? the being is 0, when refer to the being is +1, the things what are arising are -1. The underlying tendency is -1.
the condition, perpetuator is +1.

then you say something like this?
Then one arrives at a point where one has to let go of the belief in free will, if one believes in such a thing. A snippet from Chapter 1.
what kind of aliens you serve?
I can´t find a way to upload a PDF on the forum. I will leave a message here when I have the website back up. Could take a while. I wish you all a nice weekend!
you can use internet search and choose pictures they show you how to do it.

Or just look two standard lines below Preview and Submit buttons, there are in left side Options and Attachments..click on attachments and then there you can click 'add files'.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:48 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:07 pm
Greetings to you all,

I just joined this forum and I recently attained Nirvana. I worked my way through various texts about buddhism (books, sutra's) which were quite frustrating for me to read as (A) none of them described the path fully in a clear and rational way, (B) most of the texts were in a format I was not familiar with, (C) I wasn't used to the writing style and use of old language.

This body came to form in the Netherlands, were I went to university. Most of the books and texts I have read used a rational and expository approach. So this mind is conditioned to read texts with a rational line of reasoning and I assume that a lot of people from the 'West' are conditioned in this way.

So, for me to understand the Sutra's, which have a lot of dialogue, was more time-consuming and frustrating then actually understanding the path. During my journey I took notes to help me figure out the pointers of the texts I have read and I used it to keep track of my own understanding of the path and reality. I ended up with a lot of notes, which explained the whole path in detail from a rational perspective. I reworked the notes in a way that they formed a readable manual on how to reach Nirvana for rational thinking people from the 'West.'

The manual might help people with a 'Western' rational thinking mind, who are interested in Buddhism but who are also struggling, as I did, to understand texts about the path. These people might struggle because they are not familiar with the format used, are not familiar with the writing style (lot of metaphors and stories), have trouble to understand old language use, experience a lack of depth and detail in the texts due to writers not fully understanding the path and reality and therefore not able to explain them in a clear, correct and understandable way.

I'd like to share this manual with you guys, so that it may serve to help people on the path and maybe someone will offer feedback on how to improve the manual or to fix errors. I am not doing this for any personal gain. The website I refer to has no advertisements, banners, malware, etc.. I am also not interested to gain a following, as the website only contains texts. There is no forum on the website and my name is not visible anywhere. My only purpose is to share knowledge in order to help people on the path. The link to the manual is; https://foundationsofhumanlife.com

Thanks in advance for your responses. Sharing is caring.
it doesn't take lot of hours at all to get used with the Suttas. You lack motivation to check if what is written in Suttas actually say the same what you think they say, and they don't you can have so many different variations.
The manual might help people with a 'Western' rational thinking mind, who are interested in Buddhism but who are also struggling, as I did,
you still do, you haven't even started since there is differences between translations and their versions, means you need different kinds of them to stop get caught up that the "oh i get it" is final and not subject to change, you can notice that reading on different days you understand differently and depends on if you read it on evening or in the morning..

just admit you don't have read much Sutta with having a solid basis to grasp or get a hold on what you read.

also you seem weak to critisizm and excusing yourself out with "have a nice weekend" like for avid Sutta reader there is a weekend.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:12 am

The website is back up for the time being.

I tried to keep my explanations to the criticism as easy as possible, however, I am not going to constantly repeat myself.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:23 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:12 am
The website is back up for the time being.

I tried to keep my explanations to the criticism as easy as possible, however, I am not going to constantly repeat myself.
Then tell something new instead of repeating?

First of the Suttas are too hard for you, secondly you think that westerners are dumber than you, so you feel compelled to write an easy explanation(using scientific models of reality as they are no models but exactly how things are in nature)?

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:42 am

Please read the topic again. We already covered this and I don't see another way to explain it.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:50 am

PeterC86 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:42 am
Please read the topic again. We already covered this and I don't see another way to explain it.
what you said
PeterC86 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:28 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:05 pm

Ok as a i understand for you there is noone feeling sensations.
Indeed, but this doesn't mean I do not identify and define things. In order to live and take care of his survival (like in a big city as I do), one has to identify and define things. It is only when we cling to them that the self takes a more permanent form. As long as one sees that there is no meaning beyond the meaning we give to these things, there is nothing to cling to, besides one's desire for meaning. This desire is the cause of these mental fabrications.

So helpful for our survival in one hand, but also the cause of suffering in the other hand. In this I see the importance of the middle way.

With insight into dependent arising, one realizes there is no meaning to give, as the essence of the things identified and defined appear to be empty. But this doesn't mean they are not there. These things are our reality and our perception of it, so we still have to deal with them.
I can't understand why you believe that there is noone feeling sensations. Yes you don't feel sensations, feelings are felt because of contact that contact is for to let 'self' pass sense organ gates.

It is instinctual but next stage is not so instinctual, because
You need decide by yourself(use sankhara) to switch to sense media in order to feel sensations as real but they are immaterial, mind. And then when you come aware then the same thing what come thorugh the sense contact is now worldandbody so that when you come aware then the 'soul' enters the body and it doesn't enter from the same place every time you come aware, also once it enters and you notice then its in your body and then there will be next stage things.

in order to get to sense media there is work to be done, it cant be any work, since you need learn how to yield surrender it is for to have the flow in hand channel turn around and start flow backwards towards the heart..

sense of self is important, what you C86 think about self is that you need go further away from it, actually you say that self doesn't even exist, i agree it doesn't exist as a rock or table.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:47 am

auto wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:50 am
I can't understand why you believe that there is noone feeling sensations. Yes you don't feel sensations, feelings are felt because of contact that contact is for to let 'self' pass sense organ gates.
With that I meant that there is no ONE feeling sensations, there are just sensations and feelings felt through the sense media in the body. There is no separation between the sense media and the feeling.
It is instinctual but next stage is not so instinctual, because
You need decide by yourself(use sankhara) to switch to sense media in order to feel sensations as real but they are immaterial, mind. And then when you come aware then the same thing what come thorugh the sense contact is now worldandbody so that when you come aware then the 'soul' enters the body and it doesn't enter from the same place every time you come aware, also once it enters and you notice then its in your body and then there will be next stage things.

in order to get to sense media there is work to be done, it cant be any work, since you need learn how to yield surrender it is for to have the flow in hand channel turn around and start flow backwards towards the heart..
I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
sense of self is important, what you C86 think about self is that you need go further away from it, actually you say that self doesn't even exist, i agree it doesn't exist as a rock or table.
I only say that the self is just a mere mental fabrication out of an attempt to give meaning to reality, as would reality exist upon itself. It is helpful for our surviving, however one has to realize that our thoughts are only our thoughts and nothing more than that. Because reality is of dependent arising, it doesn't exist upon itself and its essence is empty. So our thoughts about something in reality do not resemble reality, because we automatically exclude things by defining something. So inherently our thoughts always fall short to reality. So, although they come in hand for our survival, we can not construct a world-view, or a self, that will resemble reality in a perfect way. As reality is a continuing interdependent flow, always changing, always different.

Have you read the whole text on the website yet?

Or are you going to keep and try to reflect your views on me?

If you want to progress, I would advice you to read the text with an open mind. Goes much faster and I don't have the time to help you progress individually over the internet. Like I said earlier, you can always relate the texts to the sutta's if you want.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:12 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:47 am
I only say that the self is just a mere mental fabrication out of an attempt to give meaning to reality, as would reality exist upon itself. It is helpful for our surviving, however one has to realize that our thoughts are only our thoughts and nothing more than that. Because reality is of dependent arising, it doesn't exist upon itself and its essence is empty. So our thoughts about something in reality do not resemble reality, because we automatically exclude things by defining something. So inherently our thoughts always fall short to reality. So, although they come in hand for our survival, we can not construct a world-view, or a self, that will resemble reality in a perfect way. As reality is a continuing interdependent flow, always changing, always different.
im glad you can write so im sure you can work and get your bread.

Have you read the whole text on the website yet?
no
Or are you going to keep and try to reflect your views on me?
idk
If you want to progress, I would advice you to read the text with an open mind. Goes much faster and I don't have the time to help you progress individually over the internet. Like I said earlier, you can always relate the texts to the sutta's if you want.
i think i just did progress, i just need think about the state i am in when try to make sense of what is going on here, so i pretty much can pass this easier than before.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:05 pm

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/ā/āmisa
Āmisa,(nt.) [der. fr. āma raw,q. v. for etym. -- Vedic āmis (m.); later Sk. āmiṣa (nt.),both in lit. & fig. meaning] ‹-› 1. originally raw meat; hence prevailing notion of “raw,unprepared,uncultivated”; thus °khāra raw lye Vin.I,206. -- 2. “fleshy,of the flesh” (as opposed to mind or spirit),hence material,physical; generally in opposition to dhamma ..
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/c/cakkhu
Subduing the senses means in the first place acquiring control over one’s eyes (cp.okkhitta cakkhu,with down-cast eyes Sn.63,411,972; Pv IV.344; & indriyesu guttadvāra; °indriya)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/o/okkhitta
Okkhitta,[pp.of okkhipati] thrown down,flung down,cast down,dropped; thrown out,rejected; only in phrase okkhitta-cakkhu,with down-cast eyes,i.e.turning the eyes away from any objectionable sight which might impair the morale of the bhikkhu; thus meaning “with eyes under control”Sn.63,411,972; Nd1 498; Nd2 177; Pv IV.344 (v.l.ukkh°); VvA.6.-- For further use & meaning,see avakkhitta.(Page 164)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/avakkhitta
Avakkhitta,& okkhitta [pp.of avakkhipati] 1.[= Sk.avakṣipta] thrown down,flung down,cast down,dropped; thrown out,rejected.(ava:) M.I,296 (ujjhita +); DA.I,281 (an°),289 (pinḍa); PvA.174 (piṇḍa).2.[= Sk.utkṣipta?] thrown off,gained,produced,got (cp.uppādita),in phrase sed’âvakkhitta gained by sweat A.II,67; III,45.(Page 81)

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:45 am

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:47 am
I only say that the self is just a mere mental fabrication out of an attempt to give meaning to reality, as would reality exist upon itself. It is helpful for our surviving, however one has to realize that our thoughts are only our thoughts and nothing more than that. Because reality is of dependent arising, it doesn't exist upon itself and its essence is empty. So our thoughts about something in reality do not resemble reality, because we automatically exclude things by defining something. So inherently our thoughts always fall short to reality. So, although they come in hand for our survival, we can not construct a world-view, or a self, that will resemble reality in a perfect way. As reality is a continuing interdependent flow, always changing, always different.
i don't understand how attempt to give meaning to reality results into a mental fabrication what is the self..

if you go to secluded place where you are alone and no place to return like no thinking about going to watch TV(rejecting these kind of thoughts and destinations), you will eventually come aware(there actually are more requirements but post gets too long)


you haven't come aware not even a once. You say that the self is from an attempt to give meaning to reality. But when you will be quiet enough, sankharas come still enough, you will come aware.

when you come aware you can then cling to it so you will cultivate it so you could then recognize it form a breath.
By judging your posts you don't see the point to do any practice, obviously you don't because you are not awakened.
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also what i try to say, yes the practice is pointless without being able to sink pass sankharas, you are correct but you deny so much that you don't practice and deny self that is equally wrong as doing practice wrongly. Specifically there is a block in throat what makes your head and torso separate..so there is no wonder about it to think self, being isn't real but is a sankhara..because you have no experience like you yourself said that you can talk about only what you have experienced.

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when sankharas come still energy going upwards can get pass throat and you come aware, then when you come aware that you are aware energies will descend after going through the forehead area..there is a lot to cultivate because there is plenty of occurrences where your sankaras aren't still there enough to become aware..
..its all real life events whilst your theory abandons the point of practice hence you even dare to say about there is no free will.

Yes go rewrite the pdf after lots practice, its not useful more than realize thoughts are empty and that too in a wrong context.

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and sankahra also other khandhas aren't self, yours etc..so self can't be mental fabrication..as you claim it to be.


auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:27 pm

stream entry attainment
https://suttacentral.net/dn5/en/sujato
Then the Buddha taught Kūṭadanta step by step, with a talk on giving, ethical conduct, and heaven. He explained the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, so sordid and corrupt, and the benefit of renunciation.
And when he knew that Kūṭadanta’s mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, joyful, and confident he explained the special teaching of the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path.
Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye, in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in the brahmin Kūṭadanta:
“Everything that has a beginning has an end.”
Then Kūṭadanta saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. He went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions.
ethical conduct is:

https://suttacentral.net/dn4/en/sujato
“It’s when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha … “idha, brāhmaṇa, tathāgato loke uppajjati arahaṃ sammāsambuddho … pe …
That’s how a mendicant is accomplished in ethics. Evaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhikkhu sīlasampanno hoti.
This, brahmin, is that ethical conduct. … Idaṃ kho taṃ, brāhmaṇa, sīlaṃ … pe …
They enter and remain in the first absorption … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati …
second absorption … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ …
third absorption … tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ …
fourth absorption … catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati … pe …
They extend and project the mind toward knowledge and vision … ñāṇadassanāya cittaṃ abhinīharati, abhininnāmeti … pe …
This pertains to their wisdom. … Idampissa hoti paññāya … pe …
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’ nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti.
This pertains to their wisdom. Idampissa hoti paññāya This, brahmin, is that wisdom.” ayaṃ kho sā, brāhmaṇa, paññā”ti.
i have lot to think about it, specially about what could mean "there is no return to any state of existence".

Its good to hear you have everything figured out there C86, maybe can you shed some of your thoughts about attainment of streamentry and ethical conduct?

also its on dn 5
...“When someone with a confident heart undertakes the training rules “Yo kho, brāhmaṇa, pasannacitto sikkhāpadāni samādiyati
— to refrain from killing living creatures, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and alcoholic drinks that cause negligence.”
pāṇātipātā veramaṇiṃ, adinnādānā veramaṇiṃ, kāmesumicchācārā veramaṇiṃ, musāvādā veramaṇiṃ, surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇiṃ.

“But is there any other sacrifice that has fewer requirements and undertakings, yet is more fruitful and beneficial?”
“There is, brahmin.
It’s when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha …
That’s how a mendicant is accomplished in ethics. …
They enter and remain in the first absorption …

This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial. …
so on it continues, second absorption has fewer requirements and undertakings..
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’
This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial.
And, brahmin, there is no other accomplishment of sacrifice which is better and finer than this.”

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