Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Calmoid
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Calmoid » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:41 am

PeterC86 wrote:
Of course you may disagree. May I ask you on the base of what you don't agree?

MN 22:
Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire—that is impossible.

MN 78
There are not only one hundred, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but far more men lay followers, my disciples, clothed in whit leading lives of celibacy who, with the destruction of the five lower fetters, will reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world.

An 8.21
I had four young wives. I then went to them and said: ‘Sisters, I have undertaken the training rules with celibacy as the fifth. If you want, you can enjoy wealth right here and do merits, or go back to your own family circle, or inform me if you want me to give you over to another man.’ My eldest wife then said to me: ‘Young sir, give me to such and such a man.’ I sent for that man, and with my left hand I took my wife, with my right hand I took the ceremonial vase, and I gave her to that man. But even while giving away my young wife, I don’t recall that any alteration took place in my mind.
...
Of the five lower fetters taught by the Blessed One, I don’t see any that I haven’t abandoned.

AN 10.13
There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters.


Your experiences are real, your conceptualisation around your experiences is wrong.
Remember, think, think again, you are using Buddhist terminology/concepts which people long time before you even have been born invented and defined. Your present thoughts speech and actions don't fit the predefined/characteristic thoughts speech actions of even an anagami not to speak of an arahant. Means you are using the wrong conventions/concepts for your experiences.
On top of that you are difficult to teach/ to correct, a quality which signals immaturity, not wisdom, a quality which the Buddha and the wise blamed.

What is the base of your conviction that you use the Buddhist terminology/concepts in the right way?

Basically, your actions and behaviour, lack of faith in the Buddha etc do not even fit the criteria of a sotapanna. Research yourself, please do your homework before responding further with unfounded uneducated nonsense.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:55 am

The one in search for Rome keeps saying; "it is written right here...." and continues his path.

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Aloka
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Aloka » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:20 pm

I've heard that there are several people claiming to be arahants at the Dharma Overground forum - including the owner of the website.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discus ... ge/8118376

.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:51 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:12 pm
So if body isn't suitable for living, its dead and there won't be any afterlife?
The only thing whichs dies is the thought of living.
you don't belive in rebirth because you say there was nothing to begin with.
So for you the self is what?
In the end I realized that it has grown out of the mental fabrications to attempt to identify and define something.
a psyhological ego only and body is like a machine, only processes?
According to science, the central nervous system serves as a connection between the mental and the physical processes. Which is to say, I hold no view of what is what.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:05 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:51 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:12 pm
So if body isn't suitable for living, its dead and there won't be any afterlife?
The only thing whichs dies is the thought of living.
you don't belive in rebirth because you say there was nothing to begin with.
So for you the self is what?
In the end I realized that it has grown out of the mental fabrications to attempt to identify and define something.
a psyhological ego only and body is like a machine, only processes?
According to science, the central nervous system serves as a connection between the mental and the physical processes. Which is to say, I hold no view of what is what.
Ok as a i understand for you there is noone feeling sensations.

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:28 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:05 pm

Ok as a i understand for you there is noone feeling sensations.
Indeed, but this doesn't mean I do not identify and define things. In order to live and take care of his survival (like in a big city as I do), one has to identify and define things. It is only when we cling to them that the self takes a more permanent form. As long as one sees that there is no meaning beyond the meaning we give to these things, there is nothing to cling to, besides one's desire for meaning. This desire is the cause of these mental fabrications.

So helpful for our survival in one hand, but also the cause of suffering in the other hand. In this I see the importance of the middle way.

With insight into dependent arising, one realizes there is no meaning to give, as the essence of the things identified and defined appear to be empty. But this doesn't mean they are not there. These things are our reality and our perception of it, so we still have to deal with them.

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:23 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:28 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:05 pm

Ok as a i understand for you there is noone feeling sensations.
Indeed, but this doesn't mean I do not identify and define things. In order to live and take care of his survival (like in a big city as I do), one has to identify and define things. It is only when we cling to them that the self takes a more permanent form. As long as one sees that there is no meaning beyond the meaning we give to these things, there is nothing to cling to, besides one's desire for meaning. This desire is the cause of these mental fabrications.

So helpful for our survival in one hand, but also the cause of suffering in the other hand. In this I see the importance of the middle way.

With insight into dependent arising, one realizes there is no meaning to give, as the essence of the things identified and defined appear to be empty. But this doesn't mean they are not there. These things are our reality and our perception of it, so we still have to deal with them.
can you be aware and know that you are aware?
how would you identify and define it?

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 am

auto wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:23 pm

can you be aware and know that you are aware?
Yes, see Chapter 1/tm 6 in the manual for a description how to get there.
how would you identify and define it?
Consciousness seems to be the capacity for perception. Meaning; consciousness is perception as such.

https://foundationsofhumanlife.com/6-consciousness/

auto
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by auto » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:01 pm

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:36 am
auto wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:23 pm

can you be aware and know that you are aware?
Yes, see Chapter 1/tm 6 in the manual for a description how to get there.
how would you identify and define it?
Consciousness seems to be the capacity for perception. Meaning; consciousness is perception as such.

https://foundationsofhumanlife.com/6-consciousness/
Did you cultivate 'being aware'? Did you then notice that its you who are aware? did you then concentrate on yourself? not sure

you wrote:
First, there must be consciousness. Only then can a concept of consciousness arise. The mind is an instrument of consciousness through which thoughts are perceived. That which perceives this concept of consciousness is consciousness: that is you, and not the concept that you have of consciousness. In other words; from your consciousness you can not conceptualize consciousness, for you are consciousness. Consciousness cannot be conceptualized in any way because it precedes and surpasses all concepts.[2]
dependent origination says,
..consciousness gives rise to feeling, perception and volition.
The chain in DO of clinging to self views are, you think that the feeling is you, the things what you do are you, or what you perceive is you or the consciousness is you.
There is no self refers to peeps identifying feelings as their self and act upon them and therefore cultivating bhava(actions) what result in birth, if you can't stop identifying, your mind won't liberate(by non-clinging) and you will experience fruits of your wrong view in this or next existence.

Example, if you sit and feel urge then acting on that urge is because of clinging and not seeing that sensation what it is, a feeling. Noticing that feeling as it is will get you to concentration:

you wrote:
you are consciousness, so you perceive reality (through stimuli) within yourself. Since, however, you are consciousness and only perceive, you thus perceive reality as yourself. If you perceive reality as yourself, you are not yourself, but only reality. So there is no self, but only reality.
if you can concentrate(obtained concentration), then the surroundings feel like they are part of you, basically you appeared into the world.
4 jhanas.
And you have to renounce clinging to sexual life(urges what lead to bhava, becoming and future existences) to reach to the retinue of Brahma.

then eventually you can cultivate bhū, hāna.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/h/hāna
hānaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Hāna,(nt.) [fr.hā,cp.Sk.hāna] relinquishing,giving up,falling off; decrease,diminution,degradation A.II,167; III,349 sq.(opp.visesa),427; Vism.11.

--gāmin going into disgrace or insignificance A.III,349 sq.--bhāgiya conducive to relinquishing (of perversity and ignorance) D.III,272 sq.; A.II,167; Nett 77; Vism.85.(Page 730)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bhāgin
bhāginPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Bhāgin,(adj.) [fr.bhāga.Cp.Vedic bhāgin] sharing in,partaking of (with Gen.),endowed with; getting,receiving A.II,80; III,42 (āyussa vaṇṇassa etc.); J.I,87 (rasānaṁ); Miln.18 (sāmaññassa); Vism.150 (lābhassa); DhA.II,90; VbhA.418 sq.(paññā as hāna-bhāginī,ṭhiti°,visesa° & nibbedha°).-- Also in def.of term Bhagavā at Nd1 142=Nd2 466=Vism.210.-- pl.bhāgino Pv III,112 (dukkhassa); PvA.18 (dānaphalassa),175.-- Cp.bhāgavant,bhāgimant,bhāgiya.(Page 501)
worthy to receive.

maybe you are Bhavagan, i don't know, you didn't go into details
you wrote:
This experiential knowledge, together with the extinguishing (enlightening) of your egocentric desires and emotions, is called Nirvana in Buddhism and is the final stage of the experiential doctrine of Buddhism. To fully understand the above, you need insight into the rest of reality.

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Will
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Will » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Just skimmed Peter's last section on Nirvana in his manual. Non-attachment or dispassion is surely a vital help on the path. Yet if one is still aware of a conceptual consciousness that has rejected objects like form & formlessness, then freedom from the Subject awareness is still not there. So not nirvana yet, I suspect.

Great little book called The Island which is full of Buddha's teachings on Nirvana, with many synonyms & definitions.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Aloka
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Aloka » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:07 pm

Will wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Great little book called The Island which is full of Buddha's teachings on Nirvana, with many synonyms & definitions.
Here's a link to the PDF:

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/



:anjali:

Calmoid
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Calmoid » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:06 am

Will wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:14 pm
Just skimmed Peter's last section on Nirvana in his manual. Non-attachment or dispassion is surely a vital help on the path. Yet if one is still aware of a conceptual consciousness that has rejected objects like form & formlessness, then freedom from the Subject awareness is still not there. So not nirvana yet, I suspect.

Great little book called The Island which is full of Buddha's teachings on Nirvana, with many synonyms & definitions.
That's quite right. Beside of that, what he means when he uses the words form and formlessness is not quite that how those terms are defined in the suttas. As well his version of the DO has no base in the suttas.

His concepts and actions fit more with certain traits of mahayana. There you can have sex and proclaim yourself to be enlightened and redefine borrowed dhamma terms as it suits you.

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DooDoot
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:40 am

Calmoid wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:06 am
you can have sex and proclaim yourself to be enlightened
:shock: orgasmic arahants?? :shock: having not-self selfless sex :shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:08 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:01 pm
Did you cultivate 'being aware'? Did you then notice that its you who are aware? did you then concentrate on yourself? not sure

you wrote:
First, there must be consciousness. Only then can a concept of consciousness arise. The mind is an instrument of consciousness through which thoughts are perceived. That which perceives this concept of consciousness is consciousness: that is you, and not the concept that you have of consciousness. In other words; from your consciousness you can not conceptualize consciousness, for you are consciousness. Consciousness cannot be conceptualized in any way because it precedes and surpasses all concepts.[2]
dependent origination says,
..consciousness gives rise to feeling, perception and volition.
The chain in DO of clinging to self views are, you think that the feeling is you, the things what you do are you, or what you perceive is you or the consciousness is you.
There is no self refers to peeps identifying feelings as their self and act upon them and therefore cultivating bhava(actions) what result in birth, if you can't stop identifying, your mind won't liberate(by non-clinging) and you will experience fruits of your wrong view in this or next existence.

Example, if you sit and feel urge then acting on that urge is because of clinging and not seeing that sensation what it is, a feeling. Noticing that feeling as it is will get you to concentration:
I don't really see the point of your text above. I explained what you have written and asked above in the part you quoted below. I don't get to the chain of DO until chapter 10.
you wrote:
you are consciousness, so you perceive reality (through stimuli) within yourself. Since, however, you are consciousness and only perceive, you thus perceive reality as yourself. If you perceive reality as yourself, you are not yourself, but only reality. So there is no self, but only reality.
if you can concentrate(obtained concentration), then the surroundings feel like they are part of you, basically you appeared into the world.
4 jhanas.
And you have to renounce clinging to sexual life(urges what lead to bhava, becoming and future existences) to reach to the retinue of Brahma.

then eventually you can cultivate bhū, hāna.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/h/hāna
hānaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Hāna,(nt.) [fr.hā,cp.Sk.hāna] relinquishing,giving up,falling off; decrease,diminution,degradation A.II,167; III,349 sq.(opp.visesa),427; Vism.11.

--gāmin going into disgrace or insignificance A.III,349 sq.--bhāgiya conducive to relinquishing (of perversity and ignorance) D.III,272 sq.; A.II,167; Nett 77; Vism.85.(Page 730)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bhāgin
bhāginPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Bhāgin,(adj.) [fr.bhāga.Cp.Vedic bhāgin] sharing in,partaking of (with Gen.),endowed with; getting,receiving A.II,80; III,42 (āyussa vaṇṇassa etc.); J.I,87 (rasānaṁ); Miln.18 (sāmaññassa); Vism.150 (lābhassa); DhA.II,90; VbhA.418 sq.(paññā as hāna-bhāginī,ṭhiti°,visesa° & nibbedha°).-- Also in def.of term Bhagavā at Nd1 142=Nd2 466=Vism.210.-- pl.bhāgino Pv III,112 (dukkhassa); PvA.18 (dānaphalassa),175.-- Cp.bhāgavant,bhāgimant,bhāgiya.(Page 501)
worthy to receive.

maybe you are Bhavagan, i don't know, you didn't go into details
you wrote:
This experiential knowledge, together with the extinguishing (enlightening) of your egocentric desires and emotions, is called Nirvana in Buddhism and is the final stage of the experiential doctrine of Buddhism. To fully understand the above, you need insight into the rest of reality.
See chapter 7 t/m 14.

What is the point of your reply? I honestly don't know what your intention is. I get the impression you are also trying to figure out if I attained Nirvana or not, am I right?

PeterC86
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:11 pm

Will wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:14 pm
Just skimmed Peter's last section on Nirvana in his manual. Non-attachment or dispassion is surely a vital help on the path. Yet if one is still aware of a conceptual consciousness that has rejected objects like form & formlessness, then freedom from the Subject awareness is still not there.
I don't know where you got that idea?
So not nirvana yet, I suspect.

Great little book called The Island which is full of Buddha's teachings on Nirvana, with many synonyms & definitions.
Thanks for the suggestion, I might find some inspiration in the PDF file to explain Nirvana better.

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