On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Crazy cloud
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:15 pm
If now is on the move, then what is it moving in or through?
Space!
Is Now bigger than space? Or are there numerous small bits of Now moving freely in space?

Have you ever experienced the past?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

PeterC86
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:53 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:43 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:15 pm
If now is on the move, then what is it moving in or through?
Space!
Is Now bigger than space? Or are there numerous small bits of Now moving freely in space?
Now is space.
Have you ever experienced the past?
I have experienced images or figments of the past, which I came to understand of as memories, with and without the release of accompanied emotions.

We can accumulate understanding of, through time moving in/through space, but this awareness of understanding of is always in the now. So there is no separation between space and time, but there is space and time. Just like there are trees and apples.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Tue May 12, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:12 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:53 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:43 pm


Space!
Is Now bigger than space? Or are there numerous small bits of Now moving freely in space?
Now is space.
Have you ever experienced the past?
I have experienced memories of the past, with and without the release of accompanied emotions.

We can accumulate understanding of, through time moving in space, but this awareness of understanding is always in the now. So there is no separation between space and time, but there is space and time. Just like there are trees and apples.
Now has no dimensions as our 3d experienced spacetime has, and that is my experience. Time, space, and "the flow" is in our consciousness, but that finite consciousness is collapsed from the timeless infinite consciousness. For the timeless consciousness, there is nothing coming into existence, and if anything had, then that which is infinite would also be finite, and there would be no escape like Nibbana.

Those experiences you say you had in the past was happening in a Now, and because you have memories about them, they were all happening in your finite consciousness and created by yourself. Have you ever experienced something outside your consciousness? I guess you would say no, and doesn't that prove that time is in you and not outside or behind or in front of you?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

PeterC86
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:27 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:12 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 1:53 pm


Is Now bigger than space? Or are there numerous small bits of Now moving freely in space?
Now is space.
Have you ever experienced the past?
I have experienced memories of the past, with and without the release of accompanied emotions.

We can accumulate understanding of, through time moving in space, but this awareness of understanding is always in the now. So there is no separation between space and time, but there is space and time. Just like there are trees and apples.
Now has no dimensions as our 3d experienced spacetime has, and that is my experience. Time, space, and "the flow" is in our consciousness, but that finite consciousness is collapsed from the timeless infinite consciousness. For the timeless consciousness, there is nothing coming into existence, and if anything had, then that which is infinite would also be finite, and there would be no escape like Nibbana.

Those experiences you say you had in the past was happening in a Now, and because you have memories about them, they were all happening in your finite consciousness and created by yourself. Have you ever experienced something outside your consciousness? I guess you would say no, and doesn't that prove that time is in you and not outside or behind or in front of you?
Is an apple inside or outside a tree?
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Crazy cloud »

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:43 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:27 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:12 pm

Now is space.


I have experienced memories of the past, with and without the release of accompanied emotions.

We can accumulate understanding of, through time moving in space, but this awareness of understanding is always in the now. So there is no separation between space and time, but there is space and time. Just like there are trees and apples.
Now has no dimensions as our 3d experienced spacetime has, and that is my experience. Time, space, and "the flow" is in our consciousness, but that finite consciousness is collapsed from the timeless infinite consciousness. For the timeless consciousness, there is nothing coming into existence, and if anything had, then that which is infinite would also be finite, and there would be no escape like Nibbana.

Those experiences you say you had in the past was happening in a Now, and because you have memories about them, they were all happening in your finite consciousness and created by yourself. Have you ever experienced something outside your consciousness? I guess you would say no, and doesn't that prove that time is in you and not outside or behind or in front of you?
Is an apple inside or outside a tree?
Is the tree and the apple inside the Appleseed?

All matter is in consciousness, or have you ever experienced matter outside awareness? For the awakened mind the waken state is the dream state. When we go to bed our awareness lies safely in bed, and we travel in time and space all over the place. And when we wake up we forget that we are awareness, collapse into a finite consciousness and continue dreaming in awaken state.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

PeterC86
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:01 pm
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:43 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:27 pm


Now has no dimensions as our 3d experienced spacetime has, and that is my experience. Time, space, and "the flow" is in our consciousness, but that finite consciousness is collapsed from the timeless infinite consciousness. For the timeless consciousness, there is nothing coming into existence, and if anything had, then that which is infinite would also be finite, and there would be no escape like Nibbana.

Those experiences you say you had in the past was happening in a Now, and because you have memories about them, they were all happening in your finite consciousness and created by yourself. Have you ever experienced something outside your consciousness? I guess you would say no, and doesn't that prove that time is in you and not outside or behind or in front of you?
Is an apple inside or outside a tree?
Is the tree and the apple inside the Appleseed?

All matter is in consciousness, or have you ever experienced matter outside awareness? For the awakened mind the waken state is the dream state. When we go to bed our awareness lies safely in bed, and we travel in time and space all over the place. And when we wake up we forget that we are awareness, collapse into a finite consciousness and continue dreaming in awaken state.
Through consciousness I experience something we call matter, but this doesn't mean that matter is only in consciousness, that would be an assumption. This assumption could lead one to believe that consciousness is all there is.

So I don't know what you are talking about; it is word salad to me. I heard something almost similar in the words of Rupert Spira.

Nibbana is unconditioned.
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by Crazy cloud »

If you find nothing that interest you, just scroll!

Rupert has a sharp mind, but he's not the only one who say similar things. I've used some time listening to different scientists, and there are a lot of debates amongst. them that supports my own understanding. But I'm not looking for someone to agree with me, but rather someone who has experience that contradict my own.

Now is unconditioned and timeless
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

PeterC86
Posts: 466
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 »

Crazy cloud wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:13 pm
If you find nothing that interest you, just scroll!
I don't let anyone tell me what to do.
Rupert has a sharp mind, but he's not the only one who say similar things. I've used some time listening to different scientists, and there are a lot of debates amongst. them that supports my own understanding. But I'm not looking for someone to agree with me, but rather someone who has experience that contradict my own.

Now is unconditioned and timeless
Maybe you have, but you are free to believe what you want to believe.
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.

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cappuccino
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by cappuccino »

Crazy cloud wrote: Have you ever experienced the past?
Lecture by Graham Hancock

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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:30 pm
...
Thanks for sharing your experience\non-experience, Peter.

I notice a particular theme: that is that you are being crucified by the average run-of-the-mill person. This is the product of conditioning and it comes directly from the mistaken notion that you are in possession of something that they want. The Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra - I'm paraphrasing here which may upset the ardent intellectuals - "having reached the final goal, there was not one single ounce of spiritual realisation".

However, it is important that people are able to scrutinise and examine your claims. In such instances, it is better to not make those claims as it invites a whole range of unconscious angst and this clouds your message.

In reality, most people do not teach precisely because it is like teaching a bar full of drunkards. I'm sure the teachings are transferred through their actions in some manner but for those that do teach, it is a huge responsibility.

Another issue you will come across is what I call concretised context. This is another product of conditioning where the mind forms itself around its choosen spiritual context and cannot discern beyond that context - in this case Buddhism, hence the teachings are held in the wrong manner; they are held too tightly, with too much grip both emotionally and intellectually. What occurs here is finger-pointing, divisiveness, and you ultimately give way to more of your conditioning. It's easier to see in forums as people don't hold back.

The Buddha taught Ehipassiko - come and see for yourself. He encouraged everyone to find their own way and this means dropping the teachings entirely, choosing to only pick them up when called to.

The final issue I want to end on is: when you have reached the goal you relinquish the teachings. You are free to give your own language to your experience of the path and it's final fruition. Many people will crucify you for this too. They will do this by segregating you into a particular school of thought and they will say, "you're not Buddhist, you're this or that". Again, it's more mind noise and with that very mind noise they further subjugate themselves.

Teaching is a thorny undertaking to which the Buddha himself backed out of at one point.

DarrenM
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by DarrenM »

Hi Peter. In your section ‘Ego and Emotions’, you say:

“You might now think that when your desires dissolve, positive emotions also disappear, but this is not the case. Without desires, you are not unsatisfied, and, consequently, perceive the world from a satisfied state of mind. If you experience negative emotions, you are unsatisfied. Therefore, you are able to experience positive emotions more often, and more intensively, if you have fewer desires.”

Can you explain what positive emotions you experience please?
And when these positive emotions change are they replaced by other positive or neutral emotions?

Thanks
Darren

PeterC86
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by PeterC86 »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:33 am
PeterC86 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:30 pm
...
Thanks for sharing your experience\non-experience, Peter.

I notice a particular theme: that is that you are being crucified by the average run-of-the-mill person. This is the product of conditioning and it comes directly from the mistaken notion that you are in possession of something that they want. The Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra - I'm paraphrasing here which may upset the ardent intellectuals - "having reached the final goal, there was not one single ounce of spiritual realisation".

However, it is important that people are able to scrutinise and examine your claims. In such instances, it is better to not make those claims as it invites a whole range of unconscious angst and this clouds your message.

In reality, most people do not teach precisely because it is like teaching a bar full of drunkards. I'm sure the teachings are transferred through their actions in some manner but for those that do teach, it is a huge responsibility.

Another issue you will come across is what I call concretised context. This is another product of conditioning where the mind forms itself around its choosen spiritual context and cannot discern beyond that context - in this case Buddhism, hence the teachings are held in the wrong manner; they are held too tightly, with too much grip both emotionally and intellectually. What occurs here is finger-pointing, divisiveness, and you ultimately give way to more of your conditioning. It's easier to see in forums as people don't hold back.

The Buddha taught Ehipassiko - come and see for yourself. He encouraged everyone to find their own way and this means dropping the teachings entirely, choosing to only pick them up when called to.

The final issue I want to end on is: when you have reached the goal you relinquish the teachings. You are free to give your own language to your experience of the path and it's final fruition. Many people will crucify you for this too. They will do this by segregating you into a particular school of thought and they will say, "you're not Buddhist, you're this or that". Again, it's more mind noise and with that very mind noise they further subjugate themselves.

Teaching is a thorny undertaking to which the Buddha himself backed out of at one point.
Thank you for your post! This may be the most insightful post I have read on this forum until this day, and it contains valuable insights for a lot of people on this forum, including myself!

I noticed that my motivation to explain myself started dropping after just another inquisition from someone who is at the beginning or halfway on the path, but is too skeptical, proud, lazy, or afraid to read the book (which is only 28 pages!). But I am not that easily defeated :) and I will keep changing my method to find one that suits me and others. I appreciate your concern!

Next is just a general remark and not aimed at you: if one is too afraid to open up one's mind for the wisdom of someone else, upon which one can reflect with their own mind, because one is afraid that one cannot figure out what is true, how is one ever going to expect to reach Nibbana? Of course I can understand that some people might need strict guidance from one source, because they might be emotionally or mentally unstable. But for the average person, this is just a constraint, in my humble opinion. They might be unaware of this though and afraid to take that leap of faith.

I cannot praise your post enough, thanks again!

Warm regards,
Peter
I am only here to guide others who are searching for Nibbana.

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cappuccino
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by cappuccino »

NuanceOfSuchness wrote: The Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra "having reached the final goal, there was not one single ounce of spiritual realization"
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta wrote:Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before …
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

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NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: On Your Way Home - A Road to Nirvana for the West

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:33 pm
NuanceOfSuchness wrote: The Buddha said in the Diamond Sutra "having reached the final goal, there was not one single ounce of spiritual realization"
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta wrote:Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before …
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
You've missed the mark. Nice try though!

whynotme
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Re: Foundations of Human Life - A road to Nirvana for the West

Post by whynotme »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:33 am
The below sounds like Hinduism & Brahman.
First, there must be consciousness. Only then can a concept of consciousness arise. The mind is an instrument of consciousness through which thoughts are perceived. That which perceives this concept of consciousness is consciousness: that is you, and not the concept that you have of consciousness. In other words; from your consciousness you can not conceptualize consciousness, for you are consciousness. Consciousness cannot be conceptualized in any way because it precedes and surpasses all concepts.

We thus perceive reality, via stimuli, within ourselves. However, we, ourselves are consciousness. As a result, we are not ‘selves’, but only reality. You can not explain yourself. This, of course, does not mean that what is perceived can have no meaning. As described before; conceptualizing is meaningful by definition.

Summarizing the above; you are consciousness, so you perceive reality (through stimuli) within yourself. Since, however, you are consciousness and only perceive, you thus perceive reality as yourself. If you perceive reality as yourself, you are not yourself, but only reality [Brahman]. So there is no self, but only reality [Brahman].

Understanding the above creates a radical change in the way reality is perceived. You are aware that you are the awareness of reality and are not separate from it. You are everything that happens in your environment and body, because you perceive this. This gives you a deeper connection with people, animals, plants and things from your environment, which is expressed in a (deep) sense of sympathy, compassion or loving kindness. This feeling arises because you no longer perceive from your person, but from reality, and realize that everything from reality is connected with your body and each other. This experiential knowledge, together with the extinguishing (enlightening) of your egocentric desires and emotions, is called Nirvana in Buddhism and is the final stage of the experiential doctrine of Buddhism. To fully understand the above, you need insight into the rest of reality.

https://foundationsofhumanlife.com/6-consciousness/
The above doesn't sound like Nirvana in Buddhism and the final stage of the experiential doctrine of Buddhism. Its sounds like Hinduism.
If this is from someone claimed nibbana, then he is wrong.

This is one of the key misunderstanding, especially Mahayana. They think nibbana is consciousness.

People should understand that mara will never give up on deceiving dhamma. Mara can learn from people, how to teach dhamma. So even he can say everything right, he is just a thief, like Devadatta who teaches almost the same as the Buddha, but he still was a fake.

It seems that this is a key important time, so mara is trying very hard now to introduce wrong dhamma to the world. He even gained faith from very powerful and famous ppl.

Another strategy of mara is trying to learn and teach the true dhamma. Bc that is a safe bet for him. If he can not prevent the reviving of dhamma, then he and his relatives will be the key ppl or the leaders of the revival. Then faith and trust will be in his hand, which he can be used for deceiving later.

So, be careful of not only someone claim wrong dhamma, but be careful of even someone teaching the true dhamma. His goal may still be deceiving, especially someone enthusiastic.
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