Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Polar Bear
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Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by Polar Bear »

I’ve noticed that a lot of lay teachers in the western insight meditation scene quote Sufi mystics and their poetry regularly. Anybody know why? It seems kinda random to me. Mystical monotheism is quite different from godless, soulless vipassana (<—humor). What’s the connection?

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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DooDoot
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

I was given two Rumi books as a gift once. I can't recall what happened to them. I probably left them in a Buddhist & spiritual library. I think the following Sufi poem is far more beneficial than hours of Mahasi instructions:
A man searching for spirit-treasure
cannot find it, so he is praying.

A voice inside says, You were given
the intuition to shoot an arrow
and then to dig where it landed,
but you shot with all your archery skill.

You were told to draw the bow
with only a fraction of your ability.

What you are looking for
is nearer than the big vein
on your neck. Let the arrow drop.

Do not exhaust yourself
like the philosophers who strain to shoot
the high arcs of their thought-arrows.

The more skill you use,
the farther you will be
from what your deepest love wants.

http://rumidays.blogspot.com/2010/07/tr ... rness.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

Those books were given to me as a gift probably around 23 years ago. This one i remember, which I think is more beneficial than doing the forty or so meditations listed in the Visuddhimagga:

An ounce of Divine favour is better than all the contrivances of the human mind. So, give up all your cunning machinations, because nothing happens until you die to the schemings of the human mind. Listen to the story of Sadri Jahan.

Sadri Jahan of Bukhara was exceedingly generous to those in need. It was his custom to wrap gold coins in bits of paper and distribute them as freely as the sun and moon radiate their light. Every morning Jahan distributed alms to a different set of people, so that none felt left out. One day
he would give to the sick, the next to widows, students of religious law, impoverished townsfolk, debtors, and so on, each group in turn. However, it was a rule of his that he never gave alms to any one who asked for them verbally. The people who were to receive alms would stand in silence, lining his path. But, if any one so much as opened their lips, they were punished by being given no alms. Jahan’s motto was, ‘Blessed are the silent’, and it was for those who remained silent that he reserved his gifts of food and money.

Now it so happened that one day an old man blurted out, ‘Give me alms, I’m starving.’ Jahan refused to give him any alms. But, to everyone’s
astonishment, the old man persisted. ‘You shameless old man,’ said Jahan.

Quick as a flash, the old man retorted, ‘You’re more shameless than me, for you enjoy this world and you are so greedy that you hope your generosity will bring you enjoyment in the next world as well.’

When he heard this reply, Jahan laughed, and, making an exception to his strict rule of giving only to those who were silent, gave alms to the old man.

A few days later it was the turn of the law students to receive alms. On this occasion one of the law students began to whine as Jahan drew near to him. Jahan heard him, and punished the student by giving him nothing. The next day it was the turn of the sick, and the student tied both his
legs up in splints and stood in line, head lowered in the hope that he would not be recognised. But Jahan recognized the student, and again gave him nothing. The next day the student concealed his face under a hood and stood in line with the impoverished townsfolk, but Jahan still recognized him. The student tried all sorts of trickery. On one occasion he even donned a chadar and stood with the women; on another he sat, head down, with the
widows, but to no avail.

The student became so desperate that in the end he went to a shroudmaker, saying, ‘Wrap me in a shroud and lay me out on the road. Don’t say a word, but sit and watch until Sadri Jahan passes by. Perhaps he will see me and, thinking I’m dead, will give alms to pay for the shroud. Whatever he gives, I’ll split it fifty-fifty with you.’ The shroudmaker did exactly as he had been told, and wrapped the student in a shroud and laid him out on the
road. When Sadri Jahan passed by he dropped some gold coins on the shroud. A hand immediately shot out from under the shroud and grabbed the coins, for the student was afraid that the shroudmaker would take the gold and keep it for himself. Sticking his head out of the shroud, the student said to Jahan, ‘You refused to give me alms, but I found a way of getting them in the end!’

‘Ah, you stubborn man,’ replied Jahan. ‘But you had to die first!’

This is the meaning of ‘Die before you die’. The rewards come after you die, not before. You can scheme all you like, but dying is the only means of attaining Divine favour. And a single Divine favour is better than any kind of personal effort, for personal effort can entail all sorts of trickery. To receive the Divine favour you need to die first. Those who know have tried and tested this method: receipt of the Divine favour is not possible without the mystical death. So, don’t hang about. Don’t even hesitate where Divine favour is concerned!

https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/Occult_ ... 20Rumi.pdf
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

I remember this one & prefer it to the Jataka Tale of the Brave Little Parrot.

A certain merchant kept a parrot in a cage. When he was
preparing to travel to India on business, he asked the
parrot if there was anything he could bring back for it. The
parrot replied, ‘When you see the parrots in India, tell
them that you have a parrot who lives in a cage and to think
of her as they fly freely over the fields.’

When the merchant arrived in India, he stopped by a
field full of parrots and delivered his parrot’s message. On
hearing the message, one of the birds immediately fell
down and died. ‘Oh, dear,’ said the merchant, with regret.
‘That parrot must have been related to mine, like two
bodies sharing the same spirit. Why didn’t I keep my mouth
shut? Now my words have killed that poor bird.’

Having finished his business, the merchant returned
home and said to his parrot, ‘I delivered your message to
some parrots that looked just like you. When they heard of
your predicament, one of them immediately dropped
down dead. I regretted what I’d said, but what use were
regrets?’

On hearing what the other parrot had done, the
merchant’s parrot fell to the floor of her cage. Mourning his
dead parrot, the merchant picked her up and took her out
of the cage. The dead bird immediately came to life and
flew off. From the safety of a tree, she explained to the
merchant that the Indian parrot had sent her a message,
Become dead like me, so that you may gain your freedom.’

The parrot gave him further spiritual advice, after which the
merchant said to her, ‘May God protect you, for you have
shown me a new path.’ When the parrot had flown away,
he said to himself, ‘Is my soul any less than the parrot? I will
follow her example and take the path of freedom

https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/Occult_ ... 20Rumi.pdf
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by SarathW »

I was reading somewhere that the historical Sufism has some Buddhist connection.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by DooDoot »

I speculate esoteric Sufism was old Persian Buddhism hiding itself in new Islam.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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No_Mind
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by No_Mind »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:01 am

This is the meaning of ‘Die before you die’. The rewards come after you die, not before. You can scheme all you like, but dying is the only means of attaining Divine favour. And a single Divine favour is better than any kind of personal effort, for personal effort can entail all sorts of trickery. To receive the Divine favour you need to die first. Those who know have tried and tested this method: receipt of the Divine favour is not possible without the mystical death. So, don’t hang about. Don’t even hesitate where Divine favour is concerned!

https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/Occult_ ... 20Rumi.pdf
Mutu qabla an tamutu roughly translated as "dying before you die" has been something I have always had lot of interest in.

For those who have not heard about it, this is one of the many blogs that explain it.
There is a [Hadith] which says: “Mutu qabla an tamutu,” which means, “Die before death.” A poet says, “Only he attains to the peace of the Lord who loses himself.” God said to Moses, “No man shall see me and live.” To see God we must be non-existent.

What does all this mean? It means that when we see our being with open eyes, we see that there are two aspects to our being: the false and the true. The false life is that of the body and mind, which only exists as long as the life is within. In the absence of that life the body cannot go on. We mistake the true life for the false, and the false for the true.

Dying is this: when there is a fruit or something sweet and good to taste, the child comes to its mother and says, “Will you give it to me?” Although it would have given pleasure to the mother to eat it, she gives it to the child. The eating of it by the child is enjoyed by the mother. That is death. She enjoys her life in the joy of another. Those who rejoice in the joy of another, though at their own expense, have taken the first step towards true life. If we are pleased by giving another a good coat, which we would have liked to wear ourselves, if we enjoy that, we are on the first step. If we enjoy a beautiful thing so much that we would like to have it, and then give that joy to another, enjoying it through his experience, we are dead. That is our death. Yet, we live more than he. Our life is much vaster, deeper, greater.

Seemingly it is a renunciation, an annihilation, but in truth it is a mastery. The real meaning of crucifixion is to crucify this false self, and so resurrect the true self. As long as the false self is not crucified, the true self is still not realized. By Sufis it is called Fana, annihilation. All the attempts made by true sages and seekers after real truth are for the one aim of attaining to everlasting life. – – –

The Sufi’s God is his divine ideal to whom he attributes all that is good and beautiful in its perfection; and he himself stands before Him in humility realizing his imperfection, being a soul, free to roam the heavens, now captive on earth in the physical body. His aim in life is to release the captive soul from the bondage of limitations, which he accomplishes by the repetition of the sacred names of God, and by constant thought of his divine ideal, and an ever-increasing love for the divine Beloved until the beloved God with His perfection becomes manifest to his vision, and his imperfect self vanishes from his sight.

https://rosyviews.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/to-see-god/
Only person who seems to have attained it (that we know of) seems to be Eckhart Tolle.

I have tried it in various ways but to no avail. How to be rid of all sankharas and continue to live .. Tolle was lucky .. to him it happened overnight. Rest of us have to work hard and fruitlessly at it.

:namaste:

No_Mind
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by Dan74-MkII »

We don't know if Tolle is fully enlightened, but without a doubt people do have deep insights even outside formal Dhamma practice.

My impression of hearing a bit of Tolle is that what he teaches is in line with the Dhamma, but as far as him actually being liberated, who can really tell?
Bundokji
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by Bundokji »

Saint Paul also said "I die daily".

This can be understood in many different ways i think, but not necessarily literally.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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No_Mind
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by No_Mind »

Dan74-MkII wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:56 pm We don't know if Tolle is fully enlightened, but without a doubt people do have deep insights even outside formal Dhamma practice.

My impression of hearing a bit of Tolle is that what he teaches is in line with the Dhamma, but as far as him actually being liberated, who can really tell?
Just as a clarification, I did not mean Tolle is "enlightened."

And since none of us know what is "enlightenment" there is no possibility to either confirm or deny someone the title of "enlightened."

What I was referring to was the night of pain and anxiety he says he experienced, which gave way to deep peace that has lasted him for several decades. I believe somehow during that night he managed to "die" and from next day sankharas had far lesser grip on him than before (he left whatever anchored him to society/community and became a wanderer who never "thinks" much but focuses on the present moment .. a sure sign of higher consciousness.)
One night in 1977, at the age of 29, after having suffered from long periods of depression, Tolle says he experienced an "inner transformation".[5] That night he awakened from his sleep, suffering from feelings of depression that were "almost unbearable," but then experienced a life-changing epiphany.[13] Recounting the experience, he says,
I couldn’t live with myself any longer. And in this a question arose without an answer: who is the ‘I’ that cannot live with the self? What is the self? I felt drawn into a void! I didn’t know at the time that what really happened was the mind-made self, with its heaviness, its problems, that lives between the unsatisfying past and the fearful future, collapsed. It dissolved. The next morning I woke up and everything was so peaceful. The peace was there because there was no self. Just a sense of presence or "beingness," just observing and watching.[15]

Tolle recalls going out for a walk in London the next morning, and finding that "everything was miraculous, deeply peaceful. Even the traffic."[13] The feeling continued, and he began to feel a strong underlying sense of peace in any situation.[9] He stopped studying for his doctorate, and for a period of about two years after this he spent much of his time sitting, "in a state of deep bliss," on park benches in Russell Square, Central London, "watching the world go by." He stayed with friends, in a Buddhist monastery, or otherwise slept rough on Hampstead Heath. His family thought him "irresponsible, even insane."[15] He changed his first name from Ulrich to Eckhart; by some reports this was in homage to the German philosopher and mystic, Meister Eckhart.[11][16] A 2012 interview article states that he saw the name Eckhart on one of a pile of books in a dream, and knew he had written the book; soon after in real life he ran into a psychic friend who called him Eckhart out of nowhere, so he changed his name.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by Dan74-MkII »

Yes, Tolle's account is very similar to others of this nature. In Rinzai Zen traditions, sometimes one hears of the practitioners concentrating all their anguish and existential angst into one "Great Doubt", an unrelenting burning sense of inquiry that cuts through all the formations and accumulations of habits right through to the very root of self-making. They speak of the bottom of the black barrel falling out or a chick breaking through the egg, or jumping off a hundred-foot pole, or boundless sheet of ice all suddenly cracking, etc etc. People experience it in many different ways, but invariably it involves an insight into anatta and a great letting go. In Zen, usually teachers refer to it as the start of earnest practice. Perhaps in case of Tolle, he also continued with it, through these Buddhist centre stays and meditations on a park bench.


I just saw that Christopher Titmuss criticises Tolle for being rich and changing high fees for his talks and retreats.

https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/ ... ightenment

Perhaps he donates all his money to worthy causes, I don't know, but I do wonder.
Last edited by Dan74-MkII on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
alfa
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by alfa »

Except for Raman Maharshi (and others like him), most 'enlightened' masters are fake.

IMO. :anjali:
SarathW
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Re: Sufism and Western Vipassana Meditation

Post by SarathW »

alfa wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:51 am Except for Raman Maharshi (and others like him), most 'enlightened' masters are fake.

IMO. :anjali:
What do you mean by enlightenment?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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