The origin of the Upanishads and their absence in the Pali Suttas

[DooDoot]

[ Split from Simple map of the Buddha's India ]

Here is a map from Suttacentral/Bhante Sujato: Announcing a map of the Buddha’s India.

I find it interesting Upanishads are not mentioned at all in the Pali suttas; yet scholars such as Bhikkhu Sujato appear to adhere to the common view the Upanishads began before the arising of the Buddha. While not directly on topic, did the Upanishads begin in another geographical region?

[form]

Here is a map from Suttacentral/Bhante Sujato: Announcing a map of the Buddha’s India.

I find it interesting Upanishads are not mentioned at all in the Pali suttas; yet scholars such as Bhikkhu Sujato appear to adhere to the common view the Upanishads began before the arising of the Buddha. While not directly on topic, did the Upanishads begin in another geographical region?

I also wants to know.

[Kim OHara]

Here is a map from Suttacentral/Bhante Sujato: Announcing a map of the Buddha’s India.

I find it interesting Upanishads are not mentioned at all in the Pali suttas; yet scholars such as Bhikkhu Sujato appear to adhere to the common view the Upanishads began before the arising of the Buddha. While not directly on topic, did the Upanishads begin in another geographical region?

Hi, DooDoot,
The early Upanishads predate the Buddha's time but were composed in much the same region, i.e Northern India. Wikipedia will give you a lot more detail at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads but their relationship to the suttas would be a question for the Early Buddhism or "Connections to Other Paths" forums.


Kim

[DooDoot]

The early Upanishads predate the Buddha's time but were composed in much the same region, i.e Northern India. Wikipedia will give you a lot more detail at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads but their relationship to the suttas would be a question for the Early Buddhism or "Connections to Other Paths" forums.

Thanks for your efforts Kim but I already posted about the above unsatisfactory ideas. Wikipedia says:

The authorship of most Upanishads is uncertain and unknown.... Scholars are uncertain about when the Upanishads were composed....

I already posted Upanishads have no relationship to the suttas given the Upanishads are not mentioned in the suttas. If faith is placed in the suttas, if Upanishads were composed in much the same region, it appears no significant Upanishads of note were composed before the Buddha.

[Kim OHara]

...Thanks for your efforts Kim but I already posted about the above unsatisfactory ideas. Wikipedia says:

The authorship of most Upanishads is uncertain and unknown.... Scholars are uncertain about when the Upanishads were composed....

I already posted Upanishads have no relationship to the suttas given the Upanishads are not mentioned in the suttas. If faith is placed in the suttas, if Upanishads were composed in much the same region, it appears no significant Upanishads of note were composed before the Buddha.

Hi, DooDoot,
There are several gaps in your reasoning, which doesn't mean you're wrong but do mean we can't be sure you're right until we close them.
Some of them are factual and should be resolvable, e.g. is it really true that none of the Upanishads are referenced in any of the suttas? I don't know for sure, but I'm sure someone does. And the suttas do repeatedly introduce followers of the Brahmanic/proto-Hindu religion which the Upanishads belong to, in debates with the Buddha or his followers. What were their scriptures, if not the Upanishads?
Other questions perhaps can't be answered exactly but that doesn't mean we don't know anything about the answers. For instance,scholars may be "uncertain about when the Upanishads were composed," but still be quite sure that a given Upanishad was composed before such-and-such a date because it was mentioned or quoted in a dateable document. Scholars may be similarly uncertain of authorship but know enough to say (e.g.) "one or more of this group", etc.

Finally, you may be perfectly correct in saying that the Upanishads are not mentioned in the suttas, but still wrong in saying that they must therefore have been composed later. For instance, the Buddhists of the time may have had a policy of not repeating their opponents' scriptures for fear of giving their opponents more credibility than they deserved - just as some of us today will not share tweets of politicians we disagree with.


Kim

[DooDoot]

There are several gaps in your reasoning

Unlikely. Impossible.

which doesn't mean you're wrong

Certainly not wrong because no definitive statement was made.

but do mean we can't be sure you're right until we close them.

It was you adhering to what you read in the MSM (such as Wiki) to be true, You posted:

The early Upanishads predate the Buddha's time but were composed in much the same region, i.e Northern India.

Unlike you, who appeared to make a statement inferring absolute truth, I personally made no dogmatic statement. I merely posted "impressions". This is why I cannot be "wrong" or have "gaps".

Some of them are factual and should be resolvable, e.g. is it really true that none of the Upanishads are referenced in any of the suttas? I don't know for sure

If you do not know for sure then why to you keep posting statements inferring to be definitively factual?

but I'm sure someone does.

Why do you need to be "sure" about something you admit you know nothing about?

And the suttas do repeatedly introduce followers of the Brahmanic/proto-Hindu religion which the Upanishads belong to, in debates with the Buddha or his followers. What were their scriptures, if not the Upanishads?

Exactly who or what are you referring to above? Please provide the quotes? Thanks

Hinduism arose after the Buddha. Before the Buddha, it was called Brahminism, with scriptures called 'Veda'. The suttas appear to refer to Brahmins who followed the Vedas or otherwise refer to individual philosophers; but it seems no Upanishads. Hinduism has many later day doctrines such as Trimurti (Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva) that did not exist before Buddha.

The following is stock phrase in the suttas:

And on that occasion five hundred brahmans from various provinces were staying at Savatthi on some business or other. The thought occurred to them, "This Gotama the contemplative prescribes purity for the four castes. Now who is capable of disputing with him on this statement?" And on that occasion the brahman student Assalayana was staying at Savatthi. Young, shaven-headed, sixteen years old, he was a master of the Three Vedas with their vocabularies, liturgy, phonology, etymology & histories as a fifth; skilled in philology & grammar, he was fully versed in cosmology and in the marks of a Great Man. The thought occurred to the brahmans, "This brahman student Assalayana is staying in Savatthi... He is capable of disputing with Gotama the contemplative on this statement."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Other questions perhaps can't be answered exactly but that doesn't mean we don't know anything about the answers. For instance,scholars may be "uncertain about when the Upanishads were composed," but still be quite sure that a given Upanishad was composed before such-and-such a date because it was mentioned or quoted in a dateable document. Scholars may be similarly uncertain of authorship but know enough to say (e.g.) "one or more of this group", etc.

Really? Like the MSM media about WMDs in Iraq and chemical weapons attacks in Syria or the theory of man-made climate change. Please provide the evidence, thank you.

Finally, you may be perfectly correct in saying that the Upanishads are not mentioned in the suttas

Yes. And?

but still wrong in saying that they must therefore have been composed later.

I said: "it appears". I made no definitive statement; unlike yourself. I try to avoid declaring something to be true when I have no evidence for it. My post was merely a hypothetical deduction, based on the evidence. The suttas often refer to the Four Veda but I have never read the term Upanishad.

For instance, the Buddhists of the time may have had a policy of not repeating their opponents' scriptures for fear of giving their opponents more credibility than they deserved - just as some of us today will not share tweets of politicians we disagree with.

The Vedas are mentioned in the suttas; plus ideologies of others, such as Ajita Kesakambalin. The statement above is pure conjecture. While I am not suggesting you are definitely wrong, I am suggesting my view is more logical. Since the Buddha spoke the truth, what did the Buddha have to fear about completing philosophies?

To end, you appeared to refer to Wiki as an absolute infallible authority. Where as I view Wiki is merely the view of one or two individual persons. Nothing special but certainly useful.

Short answer, yes, the Buddha mentioned the Vedas often, but the word "upanishad" was probably not yet in common use during his lifetime. It appears in the name of one of the Brahmanas (the Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana) composed before the Buddha, but probably wasn't used to refer to an entire genre of literature until much later.

Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo

Thus, as I posted: "it appears no significant Upanishads of note were composed before the Buddha."

Regardless, I do not even know what the Upanishads are !!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Topic closed at OP request.

If anyone wishes to discuss this matter in further detail, please create a new topic, with a clear opening post outlining the scope of conversation.

Thank you.

Metta,
Paul.