Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
budo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:16 am
"Yes I have free will, I have no choice but to have it" - Christopher Hitchens
At the end of the day this topic is a waste of time because you can better your life based on your decisions regardless of the mechanism behind it being random (free will) or legacy (determinism)
This is why the Buddha said such topics are wrong view and foolish, because they waste time and don't solve the problem of Dukkha.
The Buddha didn't entirely dismiss the topic of free will, and he refuted the idea that
all actions are based on the past (determinism). He likewise refuted that we have complete control over our existence.
A relevant quote:
For the early Buddhists, karma was non-linear and complex. Other Indian schools believed that karma operated in a simple straight line, with actions from the past influencing the present, and present actions influencing the future. As a result, they saw little room for free will. Buddhists, however, saw that karma acts in multiple feedback loops, with the present moment being shaped both by past and by present actions; present actions shape not only the future but also the present. Furthermore, present actions need not be determined by past actions. In other words, there is free will, although its range is somewhat dictated by the past. ["Karma", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (Legacy Edition), 8 March 2011]
Agreed, WRT Thanissaro quote. The aspect I have found most helpful is expressed in AN6.63:
AN6.63 wrote:
Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.
"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.
This means that intention is the nexus where 'external events', via contact, and thought/mind/etc, become involved with each other, and influence each other. One intends, acts, and experiences the fruits of action, via contact, which condition intentions.
The free will/determinism dichotomy is false, brought about by the perception,
which is a linguistic illusion, that 'the mind' and 'external events' are separate things, whereas the reality is that they influence each other through kamma, which becomes thought, word, and deed.
Free will/internal action/thoughts/mind and external events/determinism/etc are conventional language constructs which allow us to analyse and communicate, but fail to capture the reality, because there is only
the all. We don't, as human animals, have access to reality beyond the mind, the only way we can access that at all is by scientific and statistical methods, abstractions.
The 4NT are an expression of this fact: unpleasant experiences exist (external events mediated by contact and the senses, etc), they have an origin, there exists a means of stopping them, and the 8FNP is that means.
SN12.15 wrote:
"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
I read this as an account of how unskillful (ignorant) intention leads to suffering, and stopping unskillful intention leads to the end of suffering.
Generally the Buddha is shown saying that dilemmas posed in binary format are not valid ways of looking at the situation because the binary set up is a false simplification of the process of making kamma.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" -
Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha