Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:09 pm

I haven't got a clue as to what sillybatho'parmesan is or what it does but it sure does sound silly.
As to the topic which is whether buddhism is radically different from other religions it probably depends on each persons particular views about buddhism and other religions.....don't you think? The way the question is put it sounds like the OP is of the opinion that there is this thing called "budddhism" which is clearly defined with clear boundaries and unambiguous characteristics....and the same for all other religions and we all can agree on these boundaries and characteristics :jumping:
When a question like this is asked in such a wide open manner I can either :rolleye: or :jumping: and I decided to :jumping: because I'm trying to be a person of integrity and while neither of the alternatives I have presented is clearly on target for integrity I think that :jumping: is less far off target.....we all have to start from somewhere!
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:16 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:09 pm
I haven't got a clue as to what sillybatho'parmesan is or what it does but it sure does sound silly.
Sīlabbata-parāmāsa: and Sīlabbata-upādāna: 'attachment or clinging to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 mental chains samyojana, and one of the 4 kinds of clinging upādāna. It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry sotāpatti.
(Sorry - I spelt it wrongly earlier!)

SarathW
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:44 am

There is no Sutta as far as I know.
But we can inference it from knowing that SilabbathaParamasa is eliminated only by becoming Sotapanna.
Which means all Puthujana observe Sila based on Silabbathaparamasa.
Thanks, Sarath. Do you think this means that all the Puthujjana's sila is (maybe to some extent) based on silabbataparamasa? Or that silabbataparamasa is only completely eliminated by becoming sotapanna, and that most of the sila up until that point can be free from ritualism?
The way I understand all the Puthujana Sila is Silabbataparamsa.
However, there may be wholesome and unwholesome Silbbataparamasa.
For instance, observing five precepts are wholesome.
The five precepts observe by Sotapanna is a higher grade.
The five precepts observe by an Arahant is even a higher grade.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:00 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:17 am
When i raised this point, "the light at the end of the tunnel" did not even cross my mind.

I originally became interested in Buddhism because i thought i finally found a doctrine that does not include much non-sense, this was my mindset at that time. Holding justified beliefs was my main priority. Any view that does not hold falsification should be discarded. Evidence is the key. My main concern was being right. My solution to the problem of life was to indulge as much as i can, giving priority to the "present moment" over an unknown future, and if things go really wrong, i would simply end my life, without regrets. My solution to the problem of life was quite logical, based on evidence. I was neither sad nor depressed, but simply disappointed with the whole thing. Also being a Buddhist made me feel that i am different, i have always enjoyed being an exception, a corrective, an individual. Buddhism can also look very appealing to people who seek elitism, after all, we seek wisdom, unlike the run of the mill people who are too busy doing their worldly things. We are the Aryia Sangha!

Then, my practice began to show me that if there is a universal out there, it is how the unenlightened mind experiences the world. The manifestations are infinite, but the process is the same. I no longer see Buddhism as a set of instructions to be followed, but an accurate description of what is taking place all the time. After all, is not everyone seeks the end of suffering? Is not understanding causality and finding the ultimate cause (God) is what all religions are aiming to do? Do not all religions acknowledge the impermanence of life and encourage their followers to develop a sense of detachment using different allegories and myths? have not all religions helped people organize their lives and gave them a sense of direction? aint all religions give a sense of community and belonging among like minded people? If you visit forums of other religions, would you see anything radically different except the same human bungling?

The above is not meant to equate Buddhism with other religions, nor shedding doubts on the value of the Dhamma, but an invitation to see what is common among all of us. After all, the very act of seeking or belonging hides from itself the very action it is performing.
1)is not everyone seeks the end of suffering?
Agree. But only true Buddhist understand the complete suffering. Others understand the partial suffering. So they can't eliminate the total suffering.
2)Do not all religions acknowledge the impermanence of life and encourage their followers to develop a sense of detachment using different allegories and myths?
Same as the answer to q1 above.
3)have not all religions helped people organize their lives and gave them a sense of direction?
Agree but the goal (destination ) is different.
4)aint all religions give a sense of community and belonging among like minded people?
Not the main objective of Buddhism. It is a by product of practice.
5)If you visit forums of other religions, would you see anything radically different except the same human bungling?
Agree. But DW seems somewhat diffrent. Isn't it? :stirthepot:
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:47 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:41 pm

The way I understand all the Puthujana Sila is Silabbataparamsa.
However, there may be wholesome and unwholesome Silbbataparamasa.
For instance, observing five precepts are wholesome.
The five precepts observe by Sotapanna is a higher grade.
The five precepts observe by an Arahant is even a higher grade.
Ah, that makes sense - the distinction between wholesome and unwholesome. Thank you! :anjali:

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Bundokji
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:07 pm
It's interesting how people later deal with the bits of Buddhist doctrine or tradition which they do think of as nonsense. Many end up rejecting the supernatural elements in the suttas (walking through walls, flying through the air, disappearance of the body, etc.) and a literal view of the cosmology. Many can't even think of kamma and rebirth as anything other than "nonsense", which leaves them with a psychology of the here-and-now type of practice.
In my case, the practice helped me to become less critical of what i view as "non-sense". I no longer reduce and interpret beliefs in terms of right and wrong (which has its own place), but also in terms of how they affect our behavior and the future destinations they lead to. When i revisit the religion of my birth which is Islam, i am more sympathetic towards it now than i used to be, and i owe the Buddha a lot of gratitude for that. I am now less inclined to tell my people that their beliefs are wrong, but instead, i try to help them interpret it in a more wholesome ways
Yes, in my case I came to realise that this stance was itself culturally conditioned; a product of the Western intellectual "Enlightenment" and the literature it gave rise to. I was bothered by the fact that falsification was untenable, in that any doctrine of falsifiability was itself incapable of being falsified and therefore ran foul of itself. My approach is now a vague and qualified form of Popperian falsifiability, which is endorsed by Richard Gombrich, and which seems to sit well with my understanding of Right View. Being "right" is, I think, a powerful addiction, in my case born of fear.
In my opinion, the world owes a lot to western intellectualism, and i still find it as an important step forward towards our maturity as species. Discovering the scientific method, which is based on becoming more skillful in identifying trends and relations that endures longer through time is a great achievement and often underestimated. The problem arises when intentions are neglected, not in the western enlightenment project itself.

When intentions are neglected, knowledge becomes blind, and being right becomes equated with the truth. It should not come as a surprise that many in the west view intelligence and happiness to be mutually exclusive. Also neglecting intentions is behind the rise of post modern movements in the west and the lack of meaning.
Yes, I agree. Hence my earlier points about my wife's Christian congregation. The Western Christians and Buddhists in my little corner of the world are very similar indeed, in terms of lifestyle and general deportment. On-line forums such as this one tend to emphasise doctrinal differences, because people are anxious to put their view across, and show how they have got it right and others have got it wrong. But in sociological terms, I think that scholars like Linda Woodhead have got it right when they say that the important aspects of religion are the lived experiences rather than the details of dogma.
I totally agree, and i would add that contemplating the human aspect of why we, as human beings, need a religion is a cause for compassion and less sectarianism, of course without turning Buddhism into humanism or equating the Dhamma with other religions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Bundokji
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:43 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:00 pm

1)is not everyone seeks the end of suffering?
Agree. But only true Buddhist understand the complete suffering. Others understand the partial suffering. So they can't eliminate the total suffering.
Indeed, but i was referring to ending suffering as a main driver of human behavior regardless of the teachings they follow. Most humans formulate it as "seeking happiness" though.
2)Do not all religions acknowledge the impermanence of life and encourage their followers to develop a sense of detachment using different allegories and myths?
Same as the answer to q1 above.
The other day i encountered a sermon by a muslim Shia'a cleric, and he was describing the features of worldly existence. I was shocked how many of his descriptions one can encounter in Buddhism.
3)have not all religions helped people organize their lives and gave them a sense of direction?
Agree but the goal (destination ) is different.
I am not sure i can agree here. The goal is always the same in the human psyche as i see it, but the paths differ.
4)aint all religions give a sense of community and belonging among like minded people?
Not the main objective of Buddhism. It is a by product of practice.
The same can be said about most other religions. It is difficult to find a religion that states clearly that one of its objectives is to give a sense of community. In Buddhism though, the interdependence between monastics and lay people is a great importance to both.
5)If you visit forums of other religions, would you see anything radically different except the same human bungling?
Agree. But DW seems somewhat diffrent. Isn't it? :stirthepot:
:D
It is different due to the patience and generosity of those running it. I have posted a lot of garbage on this forum before, and i am still vulnerable, and yet, i am still here. :heart:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

befriend
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by befriend » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:49 pm

All religions are like different cars all moving in the same direction people who don't see it like that have no light in their hearts- Ajahn chah. we have to remember Christianity Islam were founded after Buddhas life. In the bible it says be still and know that I am God. That sounds like choiceless awareness or shikantaza.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

SarathW
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Indeed, but i was referring to ending suffering as a main driver of human behavior regardless of the teachings they follow. Most humans formulate it as "seeking happiness" though.
Agree.
Defining your goal is very critical otherwise you end up with somewhere else.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:22 am

Id praise Buddhists for having affection for Tathagata and his disciples but that is about the extent of it. A puthujjana is a puthujjana and i am sure some people who call themselves Buddhists will re-appear in worse destinations whilst some non-Buddhists will reappear in better destinations.

Many Buddhists are not really practicing the teachings;
Not disparaging, not injuring,
restraint in line with the Patimokkha,
moderation in food,
dwelling in seclusion,
commitment to the heightened mind:
this is the teaching
of the Awakened.
The 8 Noble individual types are of course way different than worldlings.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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DooDoot
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:22 am
Many Buddhists are not really practicing the teachings;
...disparaging....
To me, the above sounds exactly what you are doing! :P Woops, now I am doing it! :shock: The disease is catching. It appears contagious. :D ;)

:meditate:

chownah
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:50 am

All religions just appeal to empty headed people who don't want to think for themselves.........

YES, it is contagious!
chownah

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rightviewftw
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:07 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:22 am
Many Buddhists are not really practicing the teachings;
...disparaging....
To me, the above sounds exactly what you are doing! :P Woops, now I am doing it! :shock: The disease is catching. It appears contagious. :D ;)

:meditate:
320. As an elephant in the battlefield withstands arrows shot from bows all around, even so shall I endure abuse. There are many, indeed, who lack virtue.
...
325. When a man is sluggish and gluttonous, sleeping and rolling around in bed like a fat domestic pig, that sluggard undergoes rebirth again and again.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

binocular
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:16 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:01 pm
From another post:

3- Sometimes i feel that Buddhists are not so different from other human beings except the terminology they use. Maybe the wishful thinking i have that Buddhism is radically different can be a cause of disappointment.

viewtopic.php?p=487365#p487365

I can be related to this concern. It is frustrating when we can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

What is your opinion on this?
My opinion is that it is not wise to rely on Buddhists to help one get clarity on this matter.

All religions are in some sense radically different from one another, as far as their doctrines go, and one can only consider one religion (or aspects thereof) to be superior to another if one has already a (secret/unadmitted) allegiance to it.
On the other hand, the members of all these various religions are oddly similar, and they usually appear to be proponents of the evolutionary struggle for survival/dominance. And this so much so that one can end up wondering what it is that they really believe and thus what one is really supposed to believe -- the official religious doctrines that they claim allegiance to, or something else altogether.

chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:50 am
All religions just appeal to empty headed people who don't want to think for themselves.........
A simplistic resort to extreme individualism doesn't really solve anything, other than that it leads right to the rabbit hole of solipsism ...

A somewhat cynical social scientist would say that religion is a way and a means for people to keep eachother and themselves in check via threats of social retribution. Note: social retribution, not metaphysical retribution in the form of karmic or divine punishment. Social retribution is what people really fear, in many tangible ways. Threats of metaphysical retribution in the form of karmic or divine punishment are just a more sophisticated formulation that people resort to once they feel they are too old or too classy to threaten eachother with beating eachother up, slashing the tires on eachother's cars, or setting eachother's homes on fire ....
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

James Tan
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Re: Buddhism is radically diffrent from other relegions is a wishful thnking?

Post by James Tan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:57 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:41 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 am
SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:44 am

There is no Sutta as far as I know.
But we can inference it from knowing that SilabbathaParamasa is eliminated only by becoming Sotapanna.
Which means all Puthujana observe Sila based on Silabbathaparamasa.
Thanks, Sarath. Do you think this means that all the Puthujjana's sila is (maybe to some extent) based on silabbataparamasa? Or that silabbataparamasa is only completely eliminated by becoming sotapanna, and that most of the sila up until that point can be free from ritualism?
The way I understand all the Puthujana Sila is Silabbataparamsa.
However, there may be wholesome and unwholesome Silbbataparamasa.
For instance, observing five precepts are wholesome.
The five precepts observe by Sotapanna is a higher grade.
The five precepts observe by an Arahant is even a higher grade.
The way I understand it , is Silabbataparamsa /
"Attachment to rites and rituals" means that one thinks through performing rites and rituals is the factor could lead to awakening Or Merely by doing the rites and rituals one can attain liberation . Five precepts is the part and parcel of the noble path .
If ordinary people do not aspire for liberation in this life , they can retain as a human being in the future . And there is a possibility to attain liberation in the future life since taking refuge in the triple gems .

Rites and rituals when used wisely can be useful, but often they are used rather blindly. Rituals used wisely will calm the mind and perhaps give rise to joy. They can then form a basis for meditation practice.
:reading:

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