Zen's "not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures"

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ToVincent
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Zen's "not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures"

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:41 pm

[ Split from petavatthu ]
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.
It reminds me of this:

"Like a hawk, flying high above and preying on others, and yet outwardly displaying justice, worship, wisdom, and faith — this is raising up the lowest order of good, and walking the way of the demons".
Zhiyi

There is no secret in the Early suttas.
Only the meaning has been corrupted by demons, petas, and yakkhas.

And as the Buddha used to say, you can arrive to certain states, starting with wrong view, (like being initiated by those who are born with them: https://justpaste.it/59hb4 )

Am I wrong ?
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: petavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:46 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:41 pm
It reminds me of this:

"Like a hawk, flying high above and preying on others, and yet outwardly displaying justice, worship, wisdom, and faith — this is raising up the lowest order of good, and walking the way of the demons".
Zhiyi
Oh, Ven Zhìyǐ, he is endlessly quotable for every occasion :heart:.

But I think that his dispensation has serious potential problems. And that isn't just because he venerates scriptures of the Mahāyāna. And this is a fan of Ven Zhìyǐ speaking this.

If you are well-read on the subject of Ven Zhìyǐ there is a wonderful conversation to be had on Ven Zhìyǐ's emptiness vs the emptiness of the ascetic Gautama.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
Posts: 447
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Re: petavatthu

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:21 pm

Oh, sorry !
I must have confounded the conversation with your signature. And although It made me thought about how one could become a peta, I felt it a bit ambiguous.

世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

Anyway,
I just wanted to say that citta is indeed a wondrous thing. However the last step to arrive to it, is samadhi; which has been wrongly translated as "concentration".
This is due to an old corruption coming from a very wrongly initiated group of beings.

Buddha was very clear about not making secrets in his Teaching.
There is no secretly initiated Mahakassapa in Early Buddhism.
This esoteric supposition just equals the loss of freedom that one falls into, out of curiosity.
Making things cryptic is the best way to have one lose his freedom out of curiosity.
If the Teaching had not been corrupted, many people would have escape the net of esoterism.

One should arrive to citta by the RIGHT steps, AND liberate it.
And yes, a once known and experienced citta - AND once LIBERATED - is the door to immortality (amṛtā), then to nibbana and the Ajo (unborn) - providing that one does not remain slave to the senses (like demons and their quislings).


For that matter, one should work on the right meaning of words in Pali; and leave aside petty points of grammar, suttas with no parallels to the passage in question, etc.
In this way, they will break the veil of corruption.

The rest is just red herring.

And sorry again, I am not versed in Zhiyi's work. Nor am I very interested in ambiguity.
Just thought that one of his sayings was interesting. Maybe the rest is.

Am I wrong ?
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: petavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:53 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:21 pm
Oh, sorry !
I must have confounded the conversation with your signature. And although It made me thought about how one could become a peta, I felt it a bit ambiguous.

世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

Anyway,
I just wanted to say that citta is indeed a wondrous thing. However the last step to arrive to it, is samadhi; which has been wrongly translated as "concentration".
This is due to an old corruption coming from a very wrongly initiated group of beings.

Buddha was very clear about not making secrets in his Teaching.
There is no secretly initiated Mahakassapa in Early Buddhism.
Certainly, this story has been used by the Zen/Chan sect, in the past, to argue various ways that they were "special" or "different".

I read the story more neutrally than that.

The Buddhadharma, itself, or the Dhammavinaya if we want to use an older term, if it is a "transmission" at all, it is a wordless one.

We can read every sutta in the book, but without practice, we are nowhere.

That, IMO, is the message of my signature, rather than being a sectarian Zen story. But that's just the way that *I* read it.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: petavatthu

Post by ToVincent » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:04 am

The problem is elswhere than in the title of this locked thread.

Zen's "not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures"
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32751


This is my final answer.

The problem is not in that Zen believes or not in that the truth is standing out of the scriptures.
The problem is that the Teaching has been corrupted and made cryptic.

This is one more attempt to make the truth, as if it was covered by the Buddha with some esoteric meaning, only accessible to a few chosen one.

This is not Buddhism. This is gnosticism.
The truth is here for all to grab, provided that one unveils the corruption of the Teaching. This is what has go be unveiled: the corruption, not the truth.

The corrupters pretend to unveil the truth. But all they do is to attract the curious one, in the everlasting ambiguity of corruption. Unveiling only part of the truth. A partial truth that has to be everlastingly cryptic. And above all secretive and binding.

Buddha delivered an open truth that has been veiled by corruption.
Up to one to work on the real meaning of the Pali words. And to practice with diligence, as Buddha said.
Citta has to be liberated (cetovimutti); thoroughly liberated - and not to be used with mano, in the manner of the demons and lower gods (if ever there is a difference).
Last edited by retrofuturist on Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Meta-discussion removed
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: petavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:51 am

My last post was moved, but I am still waiting for that moderation action.

I wonder if retrofuturist will take it.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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