Self is an Illusion

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:23 am

:coffee:
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

auto
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by auto » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:15 pm

he seem to say to be identical to layers of being instead of looking at an experience over the shoulder or having sense of self in the head..no center of self..self transcendence.

what else

"We are a process and there is not one unitary self that's carried through one moment to the next unchanging"

so we should drop the center out of the experience, to drop that feeling.
---
i guess thats stream entry, a noble disciple.

Without religious dogma well then one should know then how to practice from that point on, so how do you go forward and get 2nd path and 3rd, what is the similar type of description to next path, i would like to hear about clinging to sensual pleasure, what happen to lust, sensuality.

Thing is self doctrines belong to 'sustenance DO link' and path is attained by 'non-clinging' the what come into being will cease due lack of nutriment. And bright qualities will arise, and i assume the loss of center point is just the 'asavehi pollutants what go away due lack of clinging.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... -Marks.htm
1. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ,
1. Form, monastics, is impermanent,

2. yad-aniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ,
2. that which is impermanent is suffering,

3. yaṁ dukkhaṁ tad-anattā.
3. that which is suffering is without self.
cittaṁ virajjati, vimuccati anupādāya āsavehi.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:14 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:17 am
Not self is not the middle.
It is Dependent Origination.
Dependent Origination is not the middle of eternalism and annihilation.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

binocular
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by binocular » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:30 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:45 am
The video itself is more about the science of it. but he also mentions how it helps you see the reality of things more.
You know, that seems more like this:

Image
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:10 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:15 pm

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... -Marks.htm
1. Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ,
1. Form, monastics, is impermanent,

2. yad-aniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ,
2. that which is impermanent is suffering,

3. yaṁ dukkhaṁ tad-anattā.
3. that which is suffering is without self.
cittaṁ virajjati, vimuccati anupādāya āsavehi.
I was looking for a sutta like this. Thanks for the share. Im sure I can use this.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

pegembara
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by pegembara » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:08 am

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The second part of the discourse, taking up the teaching of not-self, shows how dependent co-arising gives focus to this teaching in practice. It begins with a section on Delineations of a Self, classifying the various ways in which a sense of “self” might be defined in terms of form. The scheme of analysis introduced in this section—classifying views of the self according to the variables of form and formless; finite and infinite; already existing, naturally developing in the future, and alterable through human effort—covers all the theories of the self proposed in the classical Upaniṣads, as well as all theories of self or soul proposed in more recent times. The inclusion of an infinite self in this list gives the lie to the belief that the Buddha’s teachings on not-self were denying nothing more than a sense of “separate” or “limited” self. The discourse points out that even a limitless, infinite, all-embracing sense of self is based on an underlying tendency in the mind that has to be abandoned.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN15.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

pegembara
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by pegembara » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:19 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:14 pm
SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:17 am
Not self is not the middle.
It is Dependent Origination.
Dependent Origination is not the middle of eternalism and annihilation.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self
The underlying assumption that a self exist is so strong that no amount of reasoning and logic can break the illusion. This is where emotional clinging trumps logic. Or else most scientist/doctors would have been liberated.
If I—being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self—were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those contemplatives & brahmans who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

"And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:49 am

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"
the arising of knowledge

auto
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by auto » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:24 pm

With rules, even waiting for something can cause becoming aware of your intellect. I come aware that i am waiting. Intellect is divorced from senses. I can be aware of seeing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Assisted by five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward. There is the case where right view is assisted by virtue, assisted by learning, assisted by discussion, assisted by tranquility, assisted by insight. Assisted by these five factors, right view has awareness-release as its fruit & reward, and discernment-release as its fruit & reward."
When feeling and perception cessation then there still will be a vitality,
"Vitality-fabrications are not the same thing as feeling-states, friend. If vitality-fabrications were the same thing as feeling-states, the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception would not be discerned. It's because vitality-fabrications are one thing and feeling-states another that the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling is discerned."
'Sense of self' can be a vitality, if feeling of self is ceased, you can still know about sense of self through vitality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
[The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme."

[The brahman:] "Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?"

[The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences,' is the second extreme. Avoiding both of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by means of the middle:
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

also here we see middle way is a DO.

Garrib
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Garrib » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:20 pm

I don't think Sam Harris has arrived at this view completely independently of Buddhism - Harris is a meditator and has participated in Goenka retreats and so forth. I believe he is fairly well versed in Pali Buddhism, as well as Dzogchen. Granted, he is looking at things more from a certain philisophical, materialist, neurosciency perspective - but I wouldn't be surprised if these ideas could in fact be traced back to the Buddha's teachings.

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:22 am

You have a point. Its likely he got the idea from Buddhism and incorporated it into his athiesm. His explantaion is a good way of explaining the non-self of the five aggregates to a non-Buddhist imo.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

alfa
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by alfa » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am

The self exists.

When desire arises, the self arises with it and we say, "I desire."

The self keeps arising in different contexts (I desire, I am angry, I am good, I am bad, etc.).

Even after the death of the body, the process continues and the self keeps arising (taking on different bodies).

The ending of this process is liberation.

The ending of self is liberation. Nirvana.

auto
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by auto » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:25 pm

DO links are.. namarupa, contact, feeling, craving, self(nutriment), becoming, birth..
There is no self existing, true, because if existence requirement is birth, self link is way before that so self doesn't exist in existence.

nirvana is when craving ceases. So what still are is ..namarupa and contact.

namarupa is also heart mind. Nirvana is mind object, it isn't self/fuel/suffering/nutriment, it is deathless element.

after cessation of perception and feeling mind will contact with
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."[2]
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."[3]
then you work with feelings via jhanas corresponding to higher path attainments.

For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end.

binocular
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by binocular » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:10 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:22 am
You have a point. Its likely he got the idea from Buddhism and incorporated it into his athiesm. His explantaion is a good way of explaining the non-self of the five aggregates to a non-Buddhist imo.
The problem with such secular, non-Buddhist explanations of not-self is that they leave the listener high and dry. They basically come down to words to the effect of, "Whatever you thought that you are, you actually aren't, and that's it, end of story." It's a kind of nihilism.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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DooDoot
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:43 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:10 pm
The problem with such secular, non-Buddhist explanations of not-self is that they leave the listener high and dry. They basically come down to words to the effect of, "Whatever you thought that you are, you actually aren't, and that's it, end of story." It's a kind of nihilism.
True realisation of "not-self" always results in morality (non-harming) rather than "nihilism" because the conflict-creating views of 'self' & 'other' are absent. The proof of the pudding is found in morality.

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