Self is an Illusion

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm

alfa wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am
The self exists.
Only the body exists, not self. Only the mind exists, not self.
Only consciousness exists, not self.
“Life is anxiety”

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DooDoot
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:40 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm
Only the body exists, not self. Only the mind exists, not self.
Only consciousness exists, not self.
Does the self I used to have now not exist? :shrug:

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:56 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:40 pm
Does the self I used to have now not exist?
Used to have how?
“Life is anxiety”

auto
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by auto » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:26 pm

from that video
3.35- sense of being a subject and locus of consciousness is inside the head is an illusion.
4.44-you can just be identical to this sphere of experience that is all of the color and light and feeling and energy of consciousness.
4.52- But here is no sense of center there. So this is classically described as self-transcendence or ego transcendence in spiritual, mystical,
new age religious literature.
5.18- self-transcendence really is at the core of the phenomenology..it is clearly a experience people can have..
6.17- self-transcendence does link up with what we know about the mind through neuroscience to form a plausible
connection between science and classic mysticism, classic spirituality....your expereince of the world actually becomes more faithful to the facts

SamKR
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by SamKR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:33 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm
alfa wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am
The self exists.
Only the body exists, not self. Only the mind exists, not self.
Only consciousness exists, not self.
If the body (or mind, or consciousness) exists then self also exists. Both are abstractions based on conditions like direct experiences and their interpretations.

It depends upon what you mean by "to exist". To me, to exist means to arise and remain. Self (or sense of self) arises. Body (or sense of having a body) arises. But once the conditions (abstractions, interpretations, biases, ignorance) cease or reduce then self or body (that is, sense of self and sense of having your own body) ceases or becomes less substantial - and the knowledge that there has never been a self or a independent body arises.

Self is an illusion. Illusion is real. But there is no actual, 'real', independent thing corresponding to that real illusion.

A question that could be interesting to those who know basic physics: Does a virtual image (due to concave lens) exist?

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:53 am

il·lu·sion
noun
a deceptive appearance or impression.
a false idea or belief.

synonyms: mirage, hallucination, apparition, figment of the imagination
“Life is anxiety”

Dinsdale
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:37 am

SamKR wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:33 am
Self (or sense of self) arises.
IMO this is a vital distinction which is often glossed over. Self and sense of self, these are quite different things.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

DarrenM
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by DarrenM » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:11 pm

SamKR wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:33 am
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm
alfa wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am
The self exists.
Only the body exists, not self. Only the mind exists, not self.
Only consciousness exists, not self.
If the body (or mind, or consciousness) exists then self also exists. Both are abstractions based on conditions like direct experiences and their interpretations.

It depends upon what you mean by "to exist". To me, to exist means to arise and remain. Self (or sense of self) arises. Body (or sense of having a body) arises. But once the conditions (abstractions, interpretations, biases, ignorance) cease or reduce then self or body (that is, sense of self and sense of having your own body) ceases or becomes less substantial - and the knowledge that there has never been a self or a independent body arises.

Self is an illusion. Illusion is real. But there is no actual, 'real', independent thing corresponding to that real illusion.

A question that could be interesting to those who know basic physics: Does a virtual image (due to concave lens) exist?
Of course it exists, it exists as a virtual image. We can see it with the eye. The only things that don’t exist are such things as unicorns, flying pigs, etc.

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Aloka
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Aloka » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:07 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:26 am
I just thought i would share the video because it provides an interesting viewpoint similar to whats found in Buddhism (about the five aggregates not being self essentially), but emerged independently.

Sam Harris has connections with Joseph Goldstein and also with Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen .

.

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DooDoot
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:15 pm

Aloka wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:07 pm
Sam Harris has connections with Joseph Goldstein and also with Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen
So if a person attends a few mass-market meditation retreats, they are a certified qualified "lineage holder"? :shrug: :roll:

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Pondera
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Pondera » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:40 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 pm
alfa wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:17 am
The self exists.
Only the body exists, not self. Only the mind exists, not self.
Only consciousness exists, not self.
The Buddha has remarked:
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:


Searching all directions
with your awareness,
you find no one dearer
than yourself.
In the same way, others
are thickly dear to themselves.
So you shouldn't hurt others
if you love yourself.
The Buddha does not deny a self here. He denies a self in that which is ill and that which is inconstant.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Bundokji
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:59 am

The problem with describing the self as an illusion is that it implies a preconceived notion of what is real.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:22 pm

Pondera wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:40 am
The Buddha does not deny a self here.
Saying "yourself" is for the sake of communication.

Body isn't self, mind isn't self, consciousness isn't self, etc.
“Life is anxiety”

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Pondera
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by Pondera » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:01 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:22 pm
Pondera wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:40 am
The Buddha does not deny a self here.
Saying "yourself" is for the sake of communication.

Body isn't self, mind isn't self, consciousness isn't self, etc.
What is he trying to communicate? That we hold our skhandas dearest over others? :stirthepot:
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

SamKR
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by SamKR » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:52 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:37 am
SamKR wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:33 am
Self (or sense of self) arises.
IMO this is a vital distinction which is often glossed over. Self and sense of self, these are quite different things.
These two are taken as quite different things (sense of self and really existing self) until the realization of no-self

But after realization of no-self, it is seen that
  • there is no 'really existing' self (and there never has been, and never will be)
  • until the realization there was a sense of self and illusion of a 'really existing' self, the assumed possessor of the sense of self

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