Self is an Illusion

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
TRobinson465
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Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:01 am

Interesting talk about how the self is an illusion by well known athiest Sam Harris.

"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

SarathW
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:25 am

Self could be an illusion but if I am hungry I have to eat (not someone else) to satisfy my hunger.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:35 am

If you watch the video was talking about the sense of self and from a scientific and athiestic POV
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

binocular
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by binocular » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:26 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:35 am
If you watch the video was talking about the sense of self and from a scientific and athiestic POV
Yes, and? Where does this view leave one? What are the implications of holding such a view?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:45 am

The video itself is more about the science of it. but he also mentions how it helps you see the reality of things more.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

SarathW
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:00 am

Atheist not-self is an annihilation (non-existence) view.
Without going to two extremes Buddha taught Dependent Origination.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:16 am

"no self" is annihilation ism

"not self" is the middle

"self" is eternal ism

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:23 am

Its so ironic how I, of ALL the people on this forum, am actually being lectured about the fallacy of the annihilationist "no" self view.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:26 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:16 am
"no self" is annihilation ism

"not self" is the middle

"self" is eternal ism
I agree with this 100%. I just thought i would share the video because it provides an interesting viewpoint similar to whats found in Buddhism (about the five aggregates not being self essentially), but emerged independently.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:35 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:23 am
Its so ironic how I, of ALL the people on this forum, am actually being lectured about the fallacy of the annihilationist "no" self view.

I'm replying to SarathW

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:39 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:35 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:23 am
Its so ironic how I, of ALL the people on this forum, am actually being lectured about the fallacy of the annihilationist "no" self view.

I'm replying to SarathW
Ohhh. I see now. Well i consider the post cordial-ish to his and an indirect response to my OP. so my point on the irony still stands.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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cappuccino
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:41 am

all the blame and confusion

is entirely impersonal

TRobinson465
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by TRobinson465 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:08 am

an impersonal irony.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

pegembara
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by pegembara » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:51 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:25 am
Self could be an illusion but if I am hungry I have to eat (not someone else) to satisfy my hunger.
:shrug:
There is hunger as sensation. But-
Who is hungry? Can you point that out?

What causes hunger?
Metabolism, mitochondrial activity, energy exchanges, brain and stomach activities -yes.
Dependent on sights, sounds, smells etc. hunger arises
“To what extent, Ānanda, does one assume when assuming a self? Assuming feeling to be the self, one assumes that ‘Feeling is my self’ (or) ‘Feeling is not my self: My self is oblivious (to feeling)’ (or) ‘Neither is feeling my self, nor is my self oblivious to feeling, but rather my self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling.’

“Now, a feeling of pleasure is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. Having sensed a feeling of pleasure as ‘my self,’ then with the cessation of one’s very own feeling of pleasure, ‘my self’ has perished. Having sensed a feeling of pain as ‘my self,’ then with the cessation of one’s very own feeling of pain, ‘my self’ has perished. Having sensed a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain as ‘my self,’ then with the cessation of one’s very own feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, ‘my self’ has perished.

“Thus he assumes, assuming in the immediate present a self inconstant, entangled in pleasure and pain, subject to arising and passing away, he who says, ‘Feeling is my self.’ Thus in this manner, Ānanda, one does not see fit to assume feeling to be the self.

“As for the person who says, ‘Feeling is not the self: My self is oblivious (to feeling),’ he should be addressed as follows: ‘My friend, where nothing whatsoever is sensed [experienced] at all, would there be the thought, “I am”?’”

“No, lord.”

“Now, Ānanda, in as far as a monk doesn’t assume feeling to be the self, nor the self as oblivious, nor that ‘My self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling,’ then, not assuming in this way, he is not sustained by [does not cling to] anything in the world. Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN15.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Self is an Illusion

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:17 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:16 am
"no self" is annihilation ism

"not self" is the middle

"self" is eternal ism
Not self is not the middle.
It is Dependent Origination.
Dependent Origination is not the middle of eternalism and annihilation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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