Against the stream centers shutting down

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
dharmacorps
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:04 am

ATS is a totally separate organization from Refuge Recovery but both involve Levine.

TRobinson465
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:54 am

Digity wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:01 am
I've given up on lay teachers...not saying there aren't any good ones out there, but I think you're better off finding a real monk who is committed to the practice to lead you. I think lay teachers are more susceptible to the allures of money, adulation, etc. that comes with being a teacher. There's also the conceit of thinking you can teach/lead others...as if you've attained something special. My experience with real monks has been different...they seem much more humble and down to earth.

I think ATS has been too tarnished by this that it wouldn't make a lot of sense to continue. Levine was the creator of the "brand" he was selling. These people will disband and probably create new centres anyway.
I know some really superb lay teachers, but yeah. people who uphold more precepts are less likely to fall into the reckless traps of success/power like money and sexual misconduct.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

Digity
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by Digity » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:56 am

Not trying to suggest all lay teachers are bad. Yeah, it's just that there's more room for misbehaviour I think as a lay person. I think you just need to have your guard up. I've had better experiences with monks vs lay teachers, so I'm acknowledging I have biases and baggage with lay teachers. Having said that, I really enjoy listening to a lot of lay teachers out there.

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robertk
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by robertk » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:18 pm

I don’t know anything about Noah Levine but his father Stephen Levine , author of Who Dies, was someone worth reading.

LuisR
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by LuisR » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:19 pm

What exactly did Noah Levine do??

dharmacorps
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:50 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:18 pm
I don’t know anything about Noah Levine but his father Stephen Levine , author of Who Dies, was someone worth reading.
Yeah absolutely great book. Also a year to live (about living a year as if you are dying), and a book on relationships which is really good which slips my mind.

Justsit
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by Justsit » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:13 pm

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:19 pm
What exactly did Noah Levine do??
According to this article https://jezebel.com/a-murky-scandal-inv ... 1827742746, there have been "...sexual misconduct allegations...multiple women have stepped forward to accuse Levine of assault...“between seven and 10” accusers."

LuisR
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by LuisR » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:14 pm

Oh wow that's pretty bad.

I used really enjoyed listening to their talks on facebook live.

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DooDoot
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:07 am

I was just reading this now, elsewhere. Noah Levine. Personally, I always disagreed with Noah's wrong views about sex. Noah falsely & publicly stated: "The Buddha was a sexual liberal" thus the people attracted to him and those within his organisation would generally hold the same views. The usual verbal diarrhea of a transgressor talking about "compassion" & playing the victim. Unfortunately, the misconduct is often throughout the organisation because generally most share the same views and possibly were aware of his behaviours. I know another Buddhist group where the teacher was exposed for sexual misconduct but the disciples continue the practise of sex with students. This said, the sins generally fall upon most of the Buddhist community because most of the community continues to misrepresent what the Buddha taught about wholesome harmless sexual conduct. The letter Noah wrote is very immature from my point of view; taking about "dating". But he, as usual, continues to act as a teacher for those who are similarly lost as he; who can't see the suffering in that mode of action. :|

TRobinson465
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:51 am

Im not a fan of some of his philosophies either. but i still thought ATS was doing a good job spreading meditation and whatnot. strictly dealing with the teachings i thought they were doing more good than harm. spreading the dhamma with a few flaws is better than sitting around and doing nothing about the beings in suffering imo.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:14 am

Video on the internet:


chownah
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:04 am

Justsit wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:13 pm
LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:19 pm
What exactly did Noah Levine do??
According to this article https://jezebel.com/a-murky-scandal-inv ... 1827742746, there have been "...sexual misconduct allegations...multiple women have stepped forward to accuse Levine of assault...“between seven and 10” accusers."
From your link:
What Levine is alleged to have done is largely unclear; in the absence of the report, and given that there is an open investigation, there isn’t hard information to go by. The same rumors regarding the nature of these allegations were repeated to us by several people independently. Jezebel is not reporting them because they are not direct claims from people who say they were victims of misconduct.
So, we are left with not knowing what he is alleged to have done. It has been awhile, has it perhaps been revealed since your post?
chownah

dharmacorps
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:07 pm

From what I am hearing, you will probably not hear the details because the whole thing is under wraps with lawyers. ATS hired a law firm to investigate the claims, they found what they found (limited information was made public), and ATS people and teachers are prohibited from repeating anything they heard throughout the course of the investigation, probably under legal duress (Noah Levine could sue anyone who reports the contents of the accusations). Unless someone goes against their lawyers advice or the accusers make the situation more publicly known, we won't hear anything else other than rumors.

So you kind of have to assume that ATS leadership were privvy to way more information than we are and try to understand their actions based on that. I do believe there are good teachers at ATS even though as mentioned, this is a westernized re-imagining of Buddhism good perhaps for newcomers, people in recovery, young people, etc. My read on the situation is that whatever the lawyers found out during their investigation must have scared the leadership pretty profoundly to have this reaction take place, but again, that's just looking from the outside as someone who used to be involved in the group years ago.

Digity
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by Digity » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:17 pm

Gil Fronsdal has a talk on Clergy Misconduct that's eluding to what happened with Noah Levine. Just started to listening to the talk now.
https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/t ... onduct.mp3

Talk is just talking about misconduct in general...doesn't really get into the Noah Levine situation...he doesn't even mention his name/center. Still a good talk and I can definitely relate to what he says. The first Buddhist community I joined I was very naive and went through the whole idealization thing with a teacher. Unfortunately, this teacher was not very well adjusted mentally and it was not a good thing in the end. But yeah, I did grow up a lot after that experience, like Gil mentions in the talk.

chownah
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Re: Against the stream centers shutting down

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:47 am

We still have no idea what is alleged. Has levine at least admitted that he had sex with people associated with the various organizations or the people who use their services?
chownah

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