Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:50 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:11 am
Sujātā, a man can have seven kinds of wife. What seven? A wife like a killer, a wife like a thief, a wife like a lord, a wife like a mother, a wife like a sister, a wife like a friend, and a wife like a bondservant. These are the kinds of wife that a man can have. Which one of these are you?”
hi Mike. which of the above kinds of wife do you prefer? ;)
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:11 am
She has no anger when threatened with violence by the rod.
Without hate or anger,
she endures her husband and does what he says.
A man’s wife of this sort
is called a wife and a bondservant.

But the kinds of wives here called
mother, sister, friend, and bondservant;
steadfast in their own morality, restrained for a long time,
when their body breaks up they go to a good place
.”

Sujātā, these are the seven kinds of wife that a man can have. Which one of these are you?” “Sir, from this day forth may the Buddha remember me as a wife like a bondservant.”
So similar to Islam, it appears the Buddha above approved of physically threatening a wife, similar to as written in the Koran. :shock:
ABC host Yassmin Abdel-Magied says Islam is the "the most feminist religion".

Keysar Trad, president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils says she is right: the Koran says men should beat wives only as a "last resort".

There has been some misquoting in the media of what I quoted.

Here is the Quran (4:34):

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Here is how Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradhawi, head of the International Union of Muslim Scholars, says it must be interpreted:

If the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, she should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words… If this is not helpful, he should sleep apart from her… If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to beat her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive areas… To be specific, one may beat only to safeguard Islamic behavior and if he (the husband) sees deviation only in what she must do or obey in relation to him.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andr ... a82f1d8897

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Bundokji
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by Bundokji » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Hello DD,

The sutta does not indicate that the Buddha approved of physically threatening a wife, but more approving of patience and calm by the wife if threatened.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:50 am
So similar to Islam, it appears the Buddha above approved of physically threatening a wife, similar to as written in the Koran. :shock:
The Buddha and Muhammad seem to be saying quite different things. In effect:

Muhammad: A husband may beat his wife if she persists in disobedience.

The Buddha: A wife who is patient when threatened by her husband is superior to a wife who gets angry.

In the Sabbāsava Sutta patience is prescribed as the appropriate response to "ill-spoken, unwelcome words." It doesn't follow that the Buddha approves of those who speak such words.

In the Kakacūpama Sutta it's deemed admirable to not get angry when being sawn to pieces by bandits with a two-handed saw. It doesn't follow that the Buddha approves of bandits who practise their carpentry skills in this manner.

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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:05 am

P.A. Payutto's interpretation sounds not nice:
B. Sweet couples and bitter couples: or "blessed couples and doomed couples," are partners who have qualities, tendencies, conduct and responses to each other that make their lives either, on the positive side, mutually supportive or compatible, or, on the negative side, barely endurable or downright miserable. In this regard, there is the teaching on the seven kinds of wives, as follows:

* Vadhaka-bhariya: the murderous wife; a wife who does not live happily with her husband, who disparages him and thinks of destroying him.

* Cori-bhariya: the thieving wife; a wife who squanders all her husband's wealth.

* Ayya-bhariya: the domineering wife; a wife who is lazy and doesn't attend to her duties; she is foul-mouthed and vulgar, and likes to dominate her husband.

* Mata-bhariya: the motherly wife; a wife who looks to her husband's well-being and attends to his needs, taking care of the money that he acquires and seeing that it is not squandered.

* Bhagini-bhariya: the sisterly wife; a wife who respects and loves her husband as a younger sister loves her brother; she is gentle and deferential, and tends to agree with her husband.

* Sakhi-bhariya: the comradely wife; a wife who is like a friend, loyal to her husband; when she greets her husband she is happy; she deports and conducts herself well; she has fine manners and is a friend who readily shares her husband's thoughts and feelings.

* Dasi-bhariya: the servile wife; a wife who lives under her husband's thumb, and who passively endures his beatings and abuse.

https://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part2_3.htm#13

TRobinson465
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:11 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:05 am
P.A. Payutto's interpretation sounds not nice:
B. Sweet couples and bitter couples: or "blessed couples and doomed couples," are partners who have qualities, tendencies, conduct and responses to each other that make their lives either, on the positive side, mutually supportive or compatible, or, on the negative side, barely endurable or downright miserable. In this regard, there is the teaching on the seven kinds of wives, as follows:

* Vadhaka-bhariya: the murderous wife; a wife who does not live happily with her husband, who disparages him and thinks of destroying him.

* Cori-bhariya: the thieving wife; a wife who squanders all her husband's wealth.

* Ayya-bhariya: the domineering wife; a wife who is lazy and doesn't attend to her duties; she is foul-mouthed and vulgar, and likes to dominate her husband.

* Mata-bhariya: the motherly wife; a wife who looks to her husband's well-being and attends to his needs, taking care of the money that he acquires and seeing that it is not squandered.

* Bhagini-bhariya: the sisterly wife; a wife who respects and loves her husband as a younger sister loves her brother; she is gentle and deferential, and tends to agree with her husband.

* Sakhi-bhariya: the comradely wife; a wife who is like a friend, loyal to her husband; when she greets her husband she is happy; she deports and conducts herself well; she has fine manners and is a friend who readily shares her husband's thoughts and feelings.

* Dasi-bhariya: the servile wife; a wife who lives under her husband's thumb, and who passively endures his beatings and abuse.

https://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part2_3.htm#13
I have not found a single Buddhist scholar who I or anyone really agrees with 100% of the time. In this case I would disagree with PA Payutto's interpretation of what the Buddha meant. Although I can see how it would be admirable for a woman or anyone to have that kind of forebearance (khanti)
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:12 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:16 am
In the Kakacūpama Sutta it's deemed admirable to not get angry when being sawn to pieces by bandits with a two-handed saw. It doesn't follow that the Buddha approves of bandits who practise their carpentry skills in this manner.
Ha
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:42 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:11 am
I can see how it would be admirable for a woman or anyone to have that kind of forebearance (khanti)
Personally, it sounds rather Roman Catholic to me. I think it is more admirable a wife not endure any threats of violence with the rod and that a wife instruct & train her husband to abandon any tendencies towards violence with a rod.

When I lived in Thailand, I recall hearing in a public teaching that the 7th kind of wife was only applicable to the situation in the sutta teaching (because Sujātā was a bad domineering wife) and that only three kinds of wife are wholesome, namely, motherly, sisterly & friend wife.
“Householder, what’s with the people making that dreadful racket in your home? You’d think it was fishermen hauling in a catch!”

“Sir, that’s my daughter-in-law Sujātā. She’s been brought here from a wealthy family. She doesn’t obey her mother-in-law or father-in-law or her husband. And she does not honor, respect, esteem, and venerate the Buddha.”
I think this sutta is an example of a sutta that should be reflected upon as being applicable to a certain individual (Sujātā) or specific situation rather than universally applying to everyone or every situation.

TRobinson465
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:05 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:42 am

I think this sutta is an example of a sutta that should be reflected upon as being applicable to a certain individual (Sujātā) or specific situation rather than universally applying to everyone or every situation.
thats a good point.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by DooDoot » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:26 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:05 am
thats a good point.
Thanks TB465. :smile:

James Tan
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Re: Islamic connections from: AN 7.63 Bhariyā Sutta. Kinds of Wives.

Post by James Tan » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:40 pm

Forbearance = Assistant manager
Kindness = Manager
Wisdom = Ceo / Director
:reading:

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