Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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seeker242
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by seeker242 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:02 am

Reminds me of the story behind Dhammapada 282 :)
The Story of Thera Potthila

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (282) of this book, with reference to Thera Potthila.

Potthila was a senior bhikkhu who knew the Pitaka well and was actually teaching the Dhamma to five hundred bhikkhus. Because he knew the Pitaka, he was also very conceited. The Buddha knew his weakness and wanted him to mend his ways and put him on the right path. So, whenever Potthila came to pay obeisance, the Buddha would address him as 'Useless Potthila'. When Potthila heard these remarks, he pondered over those words of the Buddha and came to realize that the Buddha had made those unkind remarks because he, Potthila, had not made any serious effort to practise meditation and had not achieved any of the Maggas or even any level of mental absorption (jhana).

Thus, without telling anyone Thera Potthila left for a monastery at a place twenty yojanas away from the Jetavana monastery. At that monastery there were thirty bhikkhus. First, he went to the most senior bhikkhu and humbly requested him to be his mentor; but the thera, wishing to humble him, asked him to go to the next senior bhikkhu, who in his turn sent him on to the next. In this way, he was sent from one to the other until he came to a seven year old arahat samanera. The young samanera accepted him as a pupil only after ascertaining that Potthila would obediently follow his instructions. As instructed by the samanera, Thera Potthila kept his mind firmly fixed on the true nature of the body; he was very ardent and vigilant in his meditation.

The Buddha saw Potthila in his vision and through supernormal power made Potthila feel his presence and encouraged him to be steadfast and ardent.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 282: Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase.

At the end of the discourse Potthila attained arahatship.

markandeya
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:56 am

Hi seeker

Are you assuming i dont practice or have not practiced meditation.

If so please verify

:anjali:

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budo
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by budo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:16 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:56 am
Hi seeker

Are you assuming i dont practice or have not practiced meditation.

If so please verify

:anjali:
Accept things at face value, not everything is an implication. Just see it as your mind rationalizing, this is a product of over-thinking as well.

Cheers

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budo
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by budo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:19 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:07 am
Budho

There is no need for me to verify, I dont study theory, I have some simple texts and practice, its enough for me. I am half agreeing with you but I am asking for explanation in public statement that you have made.

If you want to avoid it thats fine.

i dont need any essays, a few syllables is enough for me

:anjali:
If you repeat the question as short and simple as possible, I'll try my best :)

markandeya
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 pm

Your again assuming, and juggling words and avoiding everything I wrote in Plain English, why defend what doesnt exist, , I was simple asking who it is directed at.

The question is simple. You saying Buddha is fixed in a position of 2500 years ago and since then there have been no buddhas, your giving him a fixed personality in linear time, and everything apart from that is fanta and second hand, are you referring to suttas. I cant see that has anything to do with Buddha dharma. And your dismissing any of the evolution of Buddha Dharma that has happened up to this date.

As i said I respect people who promote practice over reading books to learn, that has always been my basis, but doesnt mean that language and communication becomes mute.

I would like to know if you think that jhanas are something that you do, if you are using Jhanas as the word for meditation.

And again I was asking if you or anyone would like to approach the subject of speech vāc and vāda conclusion or teaching. I know the Sanskrit way through Vedanta to express this but I was wondering if there are any Pali equivalents. It could be an interesting discussion, but you have not considered what I wrote without a fixed opinion.

:anjali:

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budo
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by budo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:44 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:27 pm
Your again assuming, and juggling words and avoiding everything I wrote in Plain English, why defend what doesnt exist, , I was simple asking who it is directed at.

The question is simple. You saying Buddha is fixed in a position of 2500 years ago and since then there have been no buddhas, your giving him a fixed personality in linear time, and everything apart from that is fanta and second hand, are you referring to suttas. I cant see that has anything to do with Buddha dharma. And your dismissing any of the evolution of Buddha Dharma that has happened up to this date.
All I know of the Buddha is through suttas, so I'm not giving him a personality. From what I know there hasn't been another Buddha yet. I follow Early Buddhism and I do not believe in other lineages, the works I like the most are 4 nikayas and chinese agamas as compared by Bhikkhu Analayo, and the patisambhidamagga and vimuttimagga.

Regardless, as I've already repeated several times, when someone is close to the discoverer (rediscoverer) of something, they are more likely to understand it from the source rather than reiterations over long periods of time.

At the time of the Buddha there were no schisms or lineages, there was no Theravada or Mahayana or Vipassana movement, just what the Buddha taught directly to the people. Therefore there was only one dhamma, and since there was only one dhamma that reflected the one truth, then people are going to get enlightened by simply hearing it, but even then not everyone got enlightened by hearing it.

I'm sorry but I cannot explain this in any other way, if you still do not understand it, then no text, theory, metaphor or conceptualization by me can communicate this anymore.
As i said I respect people who promote practice over reading books to learn, that has always been my basis, but doesnt mean that language and communication becomes mute.

I would like to know if you think that jhanas are something that you do, if you are using Jhanas as the word for meditation.
Theory is only a map, and not the territory, maps can help you navigate but they are not the knowledge in and of themselves. Yes I do Jhana meditation as according to the suttas.
And again I was asking if you or anyone would like to approach the subject of speech vāc and vāda conclusion or teaching. I know the Sanskrit way through Vedanta to express this but I was wondering if there are any Pali equivalents. It could be an interesting discussion, but you have not considered what I wrote without a fixed opinion.

:anjali:
I don't know anything about that, sorry.

markandeya
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by markandeya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:22 pm

Thank you Budho, that is much easier to work with and more clear in where your coming from.

Firstly internal recognition is the main way to validate the teaching and not by theory, so there will always be agreement on that.
From what I know there hasn't been another Buddha yet. I follow Early Buddhism and I do not believe in other lineages, the works I like the most are 4 nikayas and chinese agamas as compared by Bhikkhu Analayo, and the patisambhidamagga and vimuttimagga.
What is the knowing based on, theory and belief or direct knowledge and understanding of other dhamma marg's, if its theory and belief its an unfair comment. Lineages are not always easy to trace, as there are many threads and how the diversify is impossible to measure and count and on the surface so may not be immediately recognizable, and not everything is recorded the way people expect, so no use me bringing somethings up.

It seems a common sectarian view or self view of ones own interests to promote there practice above others which tends not to represent dhamma and diversity of culture, lets say oneness in diversity within the organic process of life and Buddha Dhamma. It seems an inherent problem by conditioning of abrahamic faith based religions and modern systems of education, both are simple forms conditioning. I am sure there is deeper esoteric side to the abrahamic religions, but not in the mainstream populous.
At the time of the Buddha there were no schisms or lineages, there was no Theravada or Mahayana or Vipassana movemen
Perhaps, there are records of schisms with devadatta, I am sure you very aware that any slight difference is built upon to make a deeper division and blow things completely out of proportion, lets not forget we still live in a human realm on the surface, many of the present versions of the false divisions were created from the West and included and maintained in academic circles , mostly by non practicing Buddhist.
Therefore there was only one dhamma, and since there was only one dhamma that reflected the one truth, then people are going to get enlightened by simply hearing it, but even then not everyone got enlightened by hearing it.

What do you mean by one dhamma and what is the process of hearing according to pali suttas and early Buddhism from your studies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-blp_r2rKOk&t=140s I did not listen to all of but its always commendable to approach things in this way. I always feel its a level of maturity to be situated in ones own practice and not compare and judge other traditions and practices and apply superiority, especially in public, where new people are sincerely wanting to learn.
Theory is only a map, and not the territory, maps can help you navigate but they are not the knowledge in and of themselves. Yes I do Jhana meditation as according to the suttas.
There is no theory in the suttas but I agree they are maps. What is done in Jhanas, who is the doer according to the suttas.
And again I was asking if you or anyone would like to approach the subject of speech vāc and vāda conclusion or teaching. I know the Sanskrit way through Vedanta to express this but I was wondering if there are any Pali equivalents. It could be an interesting discussion, but you have not considered what I wrote without a fixed opinion.

:anjali:

Budho
I don't know anything about that, sorry.
Fair enough, but I would like to leave this open if anyone can find a cross reference.

I have only a small amount of experience among western sangha's but I do see some of the problems you that your highlighting. I was manager of vipassana retreat center in the west for 6 months and sat in on most retreats, the same problem I noticed comes up. My insights are not dependent on western traditions.

If there is a written book that deals directly with the issues and blockages to dhamma that I consider deals with this most directly and honestly is A 3 small book series paṭiccasamuppāda dependent origination by Ron Wijewantha

:anjali:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:22 am

markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:38 am
Thanks again for your answers Budho and willingness to discuss, lets test the metal of your theory or statement.

I am struggling with a few things, firstly are you limiting Buddha to an historical person, that lived 2,500 years ago.
You should join a Mahāyāna forum.

Actually, you shouldn't, because we are too sectarian against Hindus. Only people who have something in common can truly fight.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

markandeya
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Re: Off topic from: If you think you're going to get anywhere with theory

Post by markandeya » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:22 am
markandeya wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:38 am
Thanks again for your answers Budho and willingness to discuss, lets test the metal of your theory or statement.

I am struggling with a few things, firstly are you limiting Buddha to an historical person, that lived 2,500 years ago.
You should join a Mahāyāna forum.

Actually, you shouldn't, because we are too sectarian against Hindus. Only people who have something in common can truly fight.
Thanks, for your recent concern and attention.


I am hoping to join the maya great yana vehicle (forum),
, its a direct to route to Buddha, although I dont see that as anything which is outside the TheravAda tradition. your comments help with teaching me equanimity and patience, so lets keep testing the metal, its in connections , so lets shift through the gears with the absence of self and see where we end up.

If your talking about an internet Mayayana forum, same human traits going on there to different degrees, also in Hindu the Hindu forums but to a much lesser degree, as even Buddha dhamma is a home grown dhamma gem, same commonalities everywhere bro, time to let go of sectarianism, its foreign to dhamma margga

:anjali:

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