Thanks again for your answers Budho and willingness to discuss, lets test the metal of your theory or statement.
I am struggling with a few things, firstly are you limiting Buddha to an historical person, that lived 2,500 years ago. Is there any reference within the suttas that says that he is limited to that time era and that he will perfect his teachings at a later linear time date sometime in the future, when someone meets him in person and has a dhamma conversation with him.
There is a difference between a Buddha and a regular arahant
Are there any examples of arahats being liberated from the cycle of samasra and over coming greed, hatred and delusion, would that not be enough, in the suttas there are many examples of the people hearing directly from the Buddha and becoming awakened, would this not be considered as also becoming Buddha~ awake, so by your idea it seems that not even people who heard from him directly have attained enlightenment and become Buddha, as there is only one, a historical person fixed in time, unless there is a difference between enlightened state and Buddha.
Buddha is one, arahat seems to be a term to describe a state, a level of accomplishment, saint works but only to some limiting degree. I dont see how anyone can become Siddharta Gotama who attained enlightenment but can become ( bad wording) Buddha~awake if its seen in transpersonal state. it seems to me that what your saying is that everything is fixed into personal states as beings fixed within a linear timeline. When there is something more subtle and expansive going on, where the vāda relate to all 3 lokas emanating from Tathāgata.
My pali is not good enough but perhaps we can look more into the meaning of vāda as speech as you say is needed, and by hearing that speech directly from the Buddha for perfection as described in the suttas. I can do this from a Sanskrit point of view but I am sure its there in the pali. Can Sanskirt words help, Tathāgata, the highest title that the Buddha gave to himself is after all a Sanskrit word.
vāda is translated wrongly as theory or doctrine in academic studies and among general understanding, this is where the main confusion comes, as vāda does not mean theory or doctrine, its speech vāc and according to Sanskrit translations vāda has 4 quarters, all relating to the lokas, from gross, mental, subtle to Absolute. Lokas here again is always within the context of conscious abodes, not planets or external universal world systems that we have in empirical sciences, this may lead to flat round earths debates, which has nothing to do with Dhamma cosmology.
Bikkhu bodhi translates lokas as spheres, as conscious dimensions rather than external objective planetary systems and the world as land mass.
Karma Loka, sense sphere
Rupa Loka , mind sphere
Arupa Loka immaterial sphere
Lokuttara Transcendent to spheres, world transcendent.
This builds up the correct picture of what is meant by oral tradition based on vāda which leads to direct experience and awakening and leading to Tathāgata. Any pali equivalents that you or other members can find to Sanskrit maybe a worthy study for people that rely on external verification's and could promote a better understanding of Buddha Dhamma and not limiting it to being reliant on Historical personalities and categories.
As I understand Maha Mogallana and Venerable Sariuptra were attendants of the Buddha, Moon and Sun, this has esoteric significance within the lokas, due to Tathāgata not being able to directly communicate with the world, I prefer to think of the word loka as state of existence rather than planetary definition, which is where there seems to be some confusion.
You can only verify for yourself through practice and meditation, and I believe the buddha said how to judge someone's information. But at the end of the day you have to test it out for yourself through practice.
I agree, although the word judge may not fit into dhamma, sounds a bit to much like a courtroom saga. Thats for mundane intellectuals and teddy bears who have a habit of talking to themselves and chasing shadows. Quite a concern, but best to leave them in the corner until they turn around and see wider perspective, we can only hope.....
Anything that is not direct experience is a theory, just an idea with no personal experience to back it up.
While I agree, as Buddha Dharma is totally based on experience rather than artificial intellectual construction, that just causes debates and mundane mental proliferation, which I am assuming from your initial intent is part of your post, which I agree, but am confused with somethings. Intellectual and has little relation to vāda, some but very little and nothing at all if only stuck in that domain. vāda impacts directly on conscious experience, but some need a certain amount of theory it due to social conditioning and habits of modes of education and some engage to bring a bit more clarity to the table within the mundane mental speculators and so called intellectuals of academics, Again here we need a correct understanding of vāda to get down to the real essence of what is oral tradition and speech of Buddha.
An interesting read is the series Achieving transcendence by Ron Wijjenwantha who tries to explore some of the reasons why people are not becoming enlightened, it forms some basis but is a bit to technical.
The point of my original post was that obviously people are going to attain enlightenment in the buddha's presence and hearing the words directly coming out of his mouth versus 2.5 thousand years later in written form and after several councils. Just like someone who worked with Albert Einstein is more likely to understand his ideas better than 2nd hand interpreters and German to English translators.
I get your point, again there has to be some rediscovery of vāda, which will help with essence of sutta. Your comments on Einstein while I understand what your saying is not scientific.
Modern people, yes it's possible. Regardless, my main point is that there is no alive buddha right now for you to get direct spoken knowledge from. So all you have is the fallibility of non-buddhas. Therefore relying on theory is not enough.
Well at least there is some hope. How does one get enlightened without the physical appearance of the original one true Buddha 2,500 years ago, there maybe some danger of contradiction arising.
Check out Bhikkhu Analayo's work, this is his specialty
Nice monk, I have only listened to few things, I think he is trying to specialize within the Academic field, let's hope he can bring some clarify to theorists and empirical studies, who are looking for verification in the wrong way. I will keep him in mind for some reference, but I may not be able to go to much in depth, I only have a few simple texts for practice which is enough. If you could be more specific on how the Pali suttas are infallible without the presence of Siddharta Gotama The One and Only True Buddha ( sounds a bit Church Clergy Christ like) would save me hours of listening and wading through all that he says.
I believe some levels of enlightenment are still possible for those who are determined to practice and not question the Buddha's teaching on Jhanas.
What level of enlightenment is available to those who do not question the teachings on Jhana's, the beatific states, and what is the teachings and practices that support jhana cultivation, or do people just sit and sit patiently and wait for something to happen. I have read elsewhere that you promote this which is very good and your attainments are interesting, so there should be correlation of insights and knowledge, so it will be beneficial if you can give more Sasana. Could you start a thread on your insights on Jhana cultivation.
One question that pops up is , what happens when a person attains some level of enlightenment as you put it, but doesnt reach the final goal of freedom from samsara, what happens next, do they stay in the world system waiting for the second coming of Buddha.