Virtues are the Connection

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Virtues are the Connection

Post by Will » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm

Since some here seem to be puzzled, even irritated, that Connections to Other Paths are not clear conceptual matches. Perhaps if we look at the common moral virtues shared by humanity - religious humanity & non-religious humanity - it will become obvious.

The reasons & goals for ordinary civic virtues and superior spiritual virtues differ between Xtians, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews, for example. Yet the expression of good actions, thoughts and words are similar if not identical.

The better way to understand the Connections is not intellectually or conceptually, but by seeing the simple commonality of kindly or calm or joyous behaviors (for example) in any other person.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4487
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:08 pm

Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:40 pm
Since some here seem to be puzzled, even irritated, that Connections to Other Paths are not clear conceptual matches. Perhaps if we look at the common moral virtues shared by humanity - religious humanity & non-religious humanity - it will become obvious.

The reasons & goals for ordinary civic virtues and superior spiritual virtues differ between Xtians, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews, for example. Yet the expression of good actions, thoughts and words are similar if not identical.

The better way to understand the Connections is not intellectually or conceptually, but by seeing the simple commonality of kindly or calm or joyous behaviors (for example) in any other person.
I take your point, but if we see commonality, similarity, and sharing, etc., then we are already using the intellect or concepts, even if we don't make that explicit to ourselves or others. It would be really helpful if people posting about other paths could make the connection with Theravada apparent. Clarity avoids misunderstandings.

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Will » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:08 pm

Sam,

Clarity is why I am writing on this thread.

Is it clear that no intellect is needed to meet a non-Buddhist person and see their kindness or temperate or happy characteristics?

Thus focusing on the moral foundations of any Path will reveal ethical Connections with Theravada.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4487
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:16 pm

Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:08 pm
Sam,

Clarity is why I am writing on this thread.

Is it clear that no intellect is needed to meet a non-Buddhist person and see their kindness or temperate or happy characteristics?

Thus focusing on the moral foundations of any Path will reveal ethical Connections with Theravada.
To me, it's not clear that no intellect is needed in such a case, but I see intellect as the mental faculty by which we can make comparisons and subsume phenomena under general headings, and I don't particularly want to get into a debate about semantics here. The more pragmatic point is whether people can indeed see the connections between Theravada and another path if that path is merely set out here, without benefit even of point-by-point juxtaposition and elucidation.

I don't think focusing on the moral foundations of any path will necessarily reveal ethical connections with Theravada. It might do; but it might not. Some things which might be considered "paths" might have very different moral requirements from Theravadan training. Hence the requirement to demonstrate any connection that is there.

SarathW
Posts: 10336
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:54 pm

but by seeing the simple commonality of kindly or calm or joyous behaviors (for example) in any other person.
According to Buddhist teaching, there is wrong Pithy and Sukha and equanimity.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Will » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:16 pm
Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:08 pm
Sam,

Clarity is why I am writing on this thread.

Is it clear that no intellect is needed to meet a non-Buddhist person and see their kindness or temperate or happy characteristics?

Thus focusing on the moral foundations of any Path will reveal ethical Connections with Theravada.
To me, it's not clear that no intellect is needed in such a case, but I see intellect as the mental faculty by which we can make comparisons and subsume phenomena under general headings, and I don't particularly want to get into a debate about semantics here. The more pragmatic point is whether people can indeed see the connections between Theravada and another path if that path is merely set out here, without benefit even of point-by-point juxtaposition and elucidation.

I don't think focusing on the moral foundations of any path will necessarily reveal ethical connections with Theravada. It might do; but it might not. Some things which might be considered "paths" might have very different moral requirements from Theravadan training. Hence the requirement to demonstrate any connection that is there.
You overthink Sam. The Connection is simply & only the existence of any virtue, irrespective of differing "reasons & goals" related to that Path.

If a Theravadin does not wish to or cannot have empathy with a person on a Path which values & practices no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, kindness, equanimity etc. that is a focused approach that many require or prefer. So be it.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4487
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:06 pm

Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:01 pm

You overthink Sam. The Connection is simply & only the existence of any virtue
Courage in battle, then?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16472
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:07 pm

Hi Will, I think that the point is that it is useful to briefly state what the connection is, not that a huge essary is required! Similarly, when members post quotes (even sutta quotes) it is helpful to explain what point is being made.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Will » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:18 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:07 pm
Hi Will, I think that the point is that it is useful to briefly state what the connection is, not that a huge essary is required! Similarly, when members post quotes (even sutta quotes) it is helpful to explain what point is being made.

:heart:
Mike
I have stated what the Connection is - the existence & practice of any virtue. That applies to any & all posts by me in this thread and I think it is a template for any reader to use. I see no reason to repeat that for every post. Independent thought is available to all.

It is patently clear that all Paths have this same basis of right conduct in body, speech and mind. The emphasis, purpose etc. differ. That does not matter if one wants to have self-control & equanimity, if not friendliness.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1031
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Will » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:06 pm
Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:01 pm

You overthink Sam. The Connection is simply & only the existence of any virtue
Courage in battle, then?
When battling personal afflictions, you bet.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4487
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:39 pm

Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:20 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:06 pm
Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:01 pm

You overthink Sam. The Connection is simply & only the existence of any virtue
Courage in battle, then?
When battling personal afflictions, you bet.
But not when physically battling others and killing them because they have annoyed you or your clan. Because these things are also claimed as virtues.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16472
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:18 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:07 pm
Hi Will, I think that the point is that it is useful to briefly state what the connection is, not that a huge essary is required! Similarly, when members post quotes (even sutta quotes) it is helpful to explain what point is being made.

:heart:
Mike
I have stated what the Connection is - the existence & practice of any virtue. That applies to any & all posts by me in this thread and I think it is a template for any reader to use. I see no reason to repeat that for every post. Independent thought is available to all.

It is patently clear that all Paths have this same basis of right conduct in body, speech and mind. The emphasis, purpose etc. differ. That does not matter if one wants to have self-control & equanimity, if not friendliness.
I wasn't talking about this thread, I was speaking generally about quotations.

Mike

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20149
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Virtues are the Connection

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:36 am

Greetings Will,
Will wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:18 pm
I have stated what the Connection is - the existence & practice of any virtue. That applies to any & all posts by me in this thread and I think it is a template for any reader to use. I see no reason to repeat that for every post.
Not for every post, but for every opening post, yes.

Each topic is a self-contained discussion, and no standalone, omnibus "disclaimer topic" such as this one here provides an exemption from that simple requirement.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests