Atman

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:39 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
What is mindfulness
Mindfulness is to 'remember' or 'keep in mind' or 'non-forgetfulness' and specifically refers to keeping 'Right View' in the mind. 'Mindfulness' works together wth 'sampajanna' ('ready/situational wisdom'). The video below might help.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
I try to first see it from both the texts
To see it from the texts is to quote the texts. The texts say, for example:
"What is sammasati? Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting. [Vbh.105, 286]
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
Within Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon.
'Attention' is not 'mindfulness'.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
This is the first part of the cultivation of Satipaṭṭhāna, mindfulness of body, breathing and mind patterns,these are related to the worldly dhammas for cultivation of the mind and sense based human being.
Its mindfulness towards the body rather than mindfulness of the body. When clinging to the body as "Atman" or "Self" or "Me" or "Brahma" is abandoned and not permitted to arise (until the reality of Non-Atman is clearly seen directly) this is the practise of mindfulness.

Using vitakka to direct consciousness to observe or pay attention to the body when the body is regarded as "Self" or "Atman" or "Beautiful" is not mindfulness, such as pictured below:
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markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 am

whats your understanding of right view Doodoot. Correct theoretical knowledge of translated texts.

Where in any of the vedanta texts is the Body regarded as the Atma,

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:44 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 am
whats your understanding of right view Doodoot.
For me, Right View can be the intellectual understanding that craving & attachment bring suffering therefore the non-intellectual practical role of mindfulness is to always keep the mind free from craving, attachment & Atman until the vipassana (clear seeing) occurs that the five aggregates are inherently Not-Atman.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 am
Correct theoretical knowledge of translated texts.
The texts are often clear concise descriptions of enlightenment (unlike pages upon pages of internet posts of what are often deluded personal experiences).
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 am
Where in any of the vedanta texts is the Body regarded as the Atma,
I referred to the body because your posts referred to the body. Satipatthana involves EVERYTHING as an object of contemplation. EVERYTHING in Buddhism is Non-Atman. Just because this subforum is called "Connections to Other Paths" does not mean every aspect of every other path has a connection to Buddhism. In short, according to the Buddhist Path, any view of "Atman" that arises is a failure or non-operation of Right Mindfulness.

Kind regards :smile:
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markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am

Right intellectual view can help to some degree, but that has limitation as samma ditthi is more a moment to moment cognitive direction into the conditions or the naturally occurring phenomenon in awareness.

Your free to pick and choose words at your discretion, but if your going to make claims that Atma is the body according to vedantic traditions then you will need to find suitable quotations from their texts and traditions to back up your claim.

If you cant see the synthesis that is only your personal interpretation.

What I have noticed over the years within most Buddhist traditions is that more intutive people seem to know there is something more than just negation of what is passing idenitity and often just get confused with the literal translations.

I covered both sides of satipatthana. Intellectual understanding will only have short impact on the conditions, a bit like a white sugar rush, it just becomes a habit of stimulation and is another form of papancha which often leads to biased opinions. :reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:52 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
Right intellectual view can help to some degree
Intellectual understanding is very important for communication because if two people cannot agree upon what a dog is, for example, there will be lots of confusion in trying to communicate.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
but that has limitation as samma ditthi is more a moment to moment cognitive direction
No its not. Samma ditthi is the "forerunner" of the path (MN 117). At the very beginning, it is mostly intellectual. The above is an example of lack of intellectual understanding that leads to a break-down in communication.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
into the conditions or the naturally occurring phenomenon in awareness.
No. Vipassana (clear seeing) into the nature of phenomena is not "Samma Ditthi". :roll:
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
I covered both sides of satipatthana.
No. You have only posted your personal idiosyncratic opinions about it. Your personal opinions about it have as much validity as mine or Groucho Marx.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
Intellectual understanding will only have short impact on the conditions, a bit like a white sugar rush, it just becomes a habit of stimulation and is another form of papancha which often leads to biased opinions.
No. Right intellectual understanding guides right practice. This is why what you post, imo, is wrong practise. It started Buddhism nearly years ago. Your posts remind me of the things those beginners talked about; such as "mindfulness" is "attention" or "observing". :lol:

The fact, you post on this forum, I refute what you post, and you keep changing the goal-posts in avoiding the subject matters. ;) :mrgreen:
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Its sati that brings paññā to any given moment. Your intellectual writings here are the complete opposite to mine. :rofl:
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markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 am
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Its sati that brings paññā to any given moment. Your intellectual writings here are the complete opposite to mine. :rofl:

Thanks for the compliment.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:05 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
Smṛti is translated as that which is remembered, when Dharma Chaskhu, Dhamma- Chakkhu wisdom eye opens in the paññā arupa states remembrance, sati Smriti of what is forgotten directly impacts on the chitta.
The above seems to say: "sati Smriti (remembering) of what is forgotten happens when the Wisdom Eye opens with paññā" . :? So when enlightenment happens, what exactly is suddenly remembered that was somehow forgotten? :?
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 am
Thanks for the compliment.
Its not a compliment when your view is also the direct opposite of the Lord Buddha and renowned meditation monks. :roll:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Since paññā is a supreme dhamma, why would paññā need to bring back sati? Why would a mind mature in wisdom need sati? :shrug:
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:23 am

markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am
As i said ...
Things posted are questioned or addressed; which are avoided.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am
And maybe you could share you actual experience of meditation and application of the dharma practices and under which teachers you have been personally taught by.
The above approach, for me to engage in, is quite childish and immature. It seems we disagree on close to everything. :twothumbsup:
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:04 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
IWithin Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon. This practice of vitakka is then further refined to the breath for building up steadiness of the mind vichara....
The above post is unusual, in claiming vitakka or thinking is the way to develop the path. The above approach, for me to engage in, is quite childish and immature. I practised this Hindu or Yogic meditation during my first six weeks of practise, reading yogic books like Ajahn Lee's Keeping the Breath in Mind. However, the Buddha appeared to teach different to this, namely, complete abandonment or, to borrow a simplistic term, surrender.
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10


a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go.

MN 118
The old Thai monk described the difference between the Buddha's method and the Markandeya Yogic method, as follows:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.
:smile:
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:22 pm

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 pm
Namaste Auto

More esoteric or subtle rather than literal, perhaps its better to say subjective objectivity, all sentient beings are living under the same laws, there are state and country laws and then there are bigger universal laws, that govern both the inner and outer experience of sentient beings and the larger outwardly shared empirical view of the universe and beyond.

Cosmology is one of my main studies the study of being and of course practices, inner and outer manifestation and the interdependent connection, the suttas are rich in subtle esoteric sciences, , but its not that easy to talk about these things in public due to the mass of misinformation and misunderstanding from empirical sciences, pseudo sciences and the religious faith based crowd, although its quite a simple topic, perhaps best kept in oral traditions where language can flow more smoothly and has a direct impact on being and states of consciousness. Direct association with the wise is always recommended.

According to all Dharma manuals manifestation or the final product of experience has a subtle cause, the awakened beings have more direct insight into hows these work on a universal level. There is an outward perception that is directly linked to a subtle inward perception, the passages that you quotes are the inward perception of the universe~subjective objectivity.

Side note the Buddha did not attain awakening, siddharta Gotama attained the awakened state Buddha~Tathāgata.

I would say its the right track to first start off with contemplation of the body which then leads to better understanding of the mind and the see how they are in fact not different which leads one further into the nature of consciousness, which is always expanding one way or another.

Much to discover when the fascination of the outward sense and mind consciousness are turned more inwards or to trace out the subtle causes.

:namaste:
Subjective objective, hmm could that be that internal organs are feelings and sense organs are perception.

subjective=feelings
objective=perception

If perception and feeling cease then i come aware and with a knowledge i came aware or conscious. Basically i don't see when i disappear but after coming aware i see i was away.
There is next step, i will see arising of sensations, i am able to do that because of previous step. Next step is seeing cessation of sensation.
That's unbinding from a sensation so you wouldn't cling to it.

Perception could be you are top or middle or low, subjective is top middle and low are same. If you decide to go away, going very far, you are still here subjectively.
To unbind, cessation of perception and feeling has to happen.

self is a sensation, but it can't be removed, it is by resolved the knot, anatta is realized.

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