Atman

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:22 pm

markandeya wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:04 pm
Namaste Auto
(by the way what forums discusses these things, esoteric meanings and all[do you know any and can suggest]?)
I am not sure, all forums and other discussions online will have some form of discussing the esoteric side.

How we notice these things is by refining our own minds with practice however ones does that.

:anjali:
yes, i notice habits i have, habits what are longspan like takes many months to come into fruition. Its kind of hard to comprehend to realize some things persist aeons.

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:02 pm

markandeya wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:04 pm
I am not sure, all forums and other discussions online will have some form of discussing the esoteric side. How we notice these things is by refining our own minds with practice however ones does that.
I *think* ( ;) ) the more refined the mind becomes in Hinduism, the more silent it becomes. In other words, *I personally* doubt there can be refined discussion on the esoteric side. All it when end up being is a fight over: "Neti, Neti".

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:50 pm

There is a popular notion in the corners of internet that Buddhism is for to save atheists.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:18 pm

Namaste Auto,

Your right , buddha dharma is middle way beyond extremes so it can compensate to some degree the Atheists and the Theist of faith, but they have to let go of their conceptions to gain better understanding of Buddha dharma and what the Theist may call God consciousness. Advaita Vedanta and Sanatana Dharma can also compensate in the same way. personally I have learned from both sides Atheism and Theism as per western terms and theology, some good things that are helpful in certain areas( diplomacy), both have limitations because both Theism and Atheism are anthropomorphic man made. Atheism has done a grand job in destroying Old Church Dogma, now they seek alternative to fill the void and have taken to some form of spirituality and Buddha Dharma.

There are no Sanskrit equivalents for a monotheistic God, so therefore no need to include Atheism or refute it, they are both just ideas, Charvaka is not understood well in translation and in the anatomy of dharma culture as created by philosophy, intellectual speculation and Theology, polytheism monotheism, monism and all isms fall short to understand brahman and para brahman or turiya and turiyatita. There maybe some mention and connections in some later translations and commentaries but these were for the purpose of synthesis and communication.


Atma is not a single soul that resides in one person or as individual sparks in each person which reincarnates from one body to another, although there are higher lokas with swarupa shaktis identities and jivan mukta liberated man on earth, but this is beyond the realms of common understanding,God as a word in some Vedantic literature and commentaries was introduced in communication to try and explain something higher a one life theology and belief, Atma is Om Purnam its a complete whole, which is always expanding, one can say a substratum and essence which is of one nature, although all words fall short to describe it, not even the vedas can describe Atma Brahman ~Shruti Gita explains this is Srimad Bhagavatam.

The end of Bhagavad Gita is in second chapter 2.53 TEXT 53

sruti-vipratipanna te
yada sthasyati niscala
samadhav acala buddhis
tada yogam avapsyasi

When your mind is no longer disturbed by the flowery language of the Vedas, and when it remains fixed in the trance of Self-realization, then you will have attained the Divine consciousness.

This sloka can be further meditated upon to gain deeper understanding, all translations fall short or shruti~shabda and smriti~joyti powered by tat~Brahman.

Bhagavad Gita does carry on and continues for further explanation.

The quality of the Atma is Prema which has no real equivalent in translation, in the same way that love cannot be translated or fully described. Prem is the only perceivable reality that knows no boundaries, which is known only through the hrid or centre of being, non physical heart , is not limited to individual self, is lost in states afflicted with greed, hatred and ignorance kelshas, self view attA ditti. In Vedanta there is no abstract teaching same as within the Pali suttas Gotama Buddha said he held no closed fist teaching. If one realizes this Prem then he is highest Atma Jnani or knower of Brahman. Brahma stands in is vihāra brahmavihāras (sublime attitudes. "abodes of brahma")

loving-kindness or benevolence (metta)
compassion (karuna)
empathetic joy (mudita)
equanimity (upekkha)

vi-hāra

vi~ inner

hāra~dwelling

brahma dwells in metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha, not in the klesha and attA dhitti.

Some say that Buddha taught more than or something beyond Brahma, I would say this is a conceptual literal language issue, because brahma means to grow, to expand, its not limited. Only love can do this, but love can be mixed and limited with sensory and mind consciousness, so better to say only Prem can do this. Atma is Prema, undivided, unconditioned, without birth and death and so on.

For reflection.

:anjali:
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ad-hominem attacks removed

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:41 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajita_Kesakambali
Ajita Kesakambali (Sanskrit: अजित केशकंबली; Chinese: 無勝髮褐; pinyin: Wúshèng Fàhè) was an ancient Indian philosopher in the 6th century BC. He is considered to be the first known proponent of Indian hedonism and materialism, and forerunner to the Charvaka school. He was probably a contemporary of the Buddha and Mahavira. It has frequently been noted that the doctrines of the Lokayata school were considerably drawn from Ajita's teachings.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When this was said, Ajita Kesakambalin said to me, 'Great king, there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
I think the soul atman confusion comes with based on rumours, hearing information from proponents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakudha_Kaccayana
Pakudha Kaccāyana was an Indian teacher who lived around the 5th or 4th century BCE, contemporaneous with Mahavira and the Buddha.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When this was said, Pakudha Kaccayana said to me, 'Great king, there are these seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain. Which seven? The earth-substance, the liquid-substance, the fire-substance, the wind-substance, pleasure, pain, and the soul as the seventh. These are the seven substances — unmade, irreducible, uncreated, without a creator, barren, stable as a mountain-peak, standing firm like a pillar — that do not alter, do not change, do not interfere with one another, and are incapable of causing one another pleasure, pain, or both pleasure and pain.
.
"'And among them there is no killer nor one who causes killing, no hearer nor one who causes hearing, no cognizer nor one who causes cognition. When one cuts off [another person's] head, there is no one taking anyone's life. It is simply between the seven substances that the sword passes.'
that above view is why the soul or unchanging self is rejected. It doesn't mean there is no atma or no self, but people claim there is no self, claiming anatta thus mixing self view and the self(i think its even more crave mistook, just how familiar that Indian teacher view is nowadays amongst budhism people)

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:27 pm

markandeya wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:18 pm
..
hi,
i think you might have materialism tendencies? even if you talk about something ineffable what can't be described.

and you reject God? there can be a spirit in a tree, for me it means literally there is spirit in a tree. I don't find Sutta reference to that currently but it is in Nikayas.

Also if there is a soul, it is literally in a body. No metaphysics. Quantum physics is also real, hence quantum states what can be captured and kept without change in a state they hold, scientists are looking ways for it in a lab too keep states longer.

Same way the soul can be captured. Jin in a lamp sounds feasible and not a myth, its made into myth..

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:34 pm

Namaste Auto,

I am not sure how to interpret the above quotes, the study of the 4 elements can either be the basics of analysis in systems like samkhya which was prominent in ancient times and is also part of some of suttas, many of Gotama Buddha's followers came from strong lines of the samkhya tradition. Samkhya is not a simple study or system to follow in meditation, it more of an analysis via meditation awareness. Charvaka which dealt only with the 4 basic elements maybe wrongly misrepresented and seen as something that was separate and distinct from samkhya. Ultimately samkhya itself has a limit in comparison and a preliminary to enlightened samyak-saṃbodhi.

Not a simple subject if we are to go by translations. Everything seems to be very badly out of context.

More the need to satipatthana and right application and cultivation or ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo over intellectual study unless translations are being questioned or reformed.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:43 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:41 am
"When this was said, Ajita Kesakambalin said to me, 'Great king, there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the other after having directly known and realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after death.'
The Buddha taught teachings that were similar to aspects of the above. For example:
"'A boil,' monks, is another word for this body composed of the four properties, born of mother & father, fed on rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing & massaging, breaking-up & disintegrating. It has nine openings, nine un-lanced heads. Whatever would ooze out from it would be an uncleanliness oozing out, a stench oozing out, a disgust oozing out. Whatever would be discharged from it would be an uncleanliness discharging, a stench discharging, a disgust discharging. For that reason, you should become disenchanted with this body."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think it is important to distinguish between different doctrines, which may share some things in common but other things vastly different. In other words, life composed of elements and impermanent appears something shared in common with the above two doctrines. The non-Buddhist views are highlighted in red colour.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:48 pm

auto wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:27 pm
markandeya wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:18 pm
..
hi,
i think you might have materialism tendencies? even if you talk about something ineffable what can't be described.

and you reject God? there can be a spirit in a tree, for me it means literally there is spirit in a tree. I don't find Sutta reference to that currently but it is in Nikayas.

Also if there is a soul, it is literally in a body. No metaphysics. Quantum physics is also real, hence quantum states what can be captured and kept without change in a state they hold, scientists are looking ways for it in a lab too keep states longer.

Same way the soul can be captured. Jin in a lamp sounds feasible and not a myth, its made into myth..
Maybe your perception Auto, because of a fixed view perhaps, I cant see how it fits into materialistic view, unless you have confined what I am saying to your understanding, then it is simply your own. Its just an attempt to translate something that is not easy due to all the ways that its being spoken of these and things are so badly translated and put into beliefs and held by cultural and social conditioning. In reality its simple, one can make it as complicated or a simple as they want.

The word soul which originally meant essence of something is closer to describing Atma than a soul or a spiritual principle that can go from one body to another. I dont accept this as the rebirth process or describing the Atma the sublime essence.

A jin would not be Atma, to subscribe the soul to any and every phenomenon and then project that as Atma in same context will fail.

Its best to try and look at the information in trans-personal way for reflection.

Maybe its just such put into the mundane sphere as an abstract idea that can never be thought of, known about, experienced or ever brought into any form of experience because all these things have been refuted in language as not being able to know what the Buddha was teaching or what is Nibbana and Tathāgata. Its more simple that working it out on paper or imagining some ineffable unknowable vague reality, simple for the simple but no less profound and transcendent or para to ordinary mind and sense consciousness, but ordinary mind and sense consciousness cannot exists without it.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:30 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:48 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:27 pm
markandeya wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:18 pm
..
hi,
i think you might have materialism tendencies? even if you talk about something ineffable what can't be described.

and you reject God? there can be a spirit in a tree, for me it means literally there is spirit in a tree. I don't find Sutta reference to that currently but it is in Nikayas.

Also if there is a soul, it is literally in a body. No metaphysics. Quantum physics is also real, hence quantum states what can be captured and kept without change in a state they hold, scientists are looking ways for it in a lab too keep states longer.

Same way the soul can be captured. Jin in a lamp sounds feasible and not a myth, its made into myth..
Maybe your perception Auto, because of a fixed view perhaps, I cant see how it fits into materialistic view, unless you have confined what I am saying to your understanding, then it is simply your own. Its just an attempt to translate something that is not easy due to all the ways that its being spoken of these and things are so badly translated and put into beliefs and held by cultural and social conditioning. In reality its simple, one can make it as complicated or a simple as they want.

The word soul which originally meant essence of something is closer to describing Atma than a soul or a spiritual principle that can go from one body to another. I dont accept this as the rebirth process or describing the Atma the sublime essence.

A jin would not be Atma, to subscribe the soul to any and every phenomenon and then project that as Atma in same context will fail.

Its best to try and look at the information in trans-personal way for reflection.

Maybe its just such put into the mundane sphere as an abstract idea that can never be thought of, known about, experienced or ever brought into any form of experience because all these things have been refuted in language as not being able to know what the Buddha was teaching or what is Nibbana and Tathāgata. Its more simple that working it out on paper or imagining some ineffable unknowable vague reality, simple for the simple but no less profound and transcendent or para to ordinary mind and sense consciousness, but ordinary mind and sense consciousness cannot exists without it.

:anjali:
hmm looking information in a transpersonal way of reflection. In quantum physics, dealing with particles the perception, observer defines the phenomena. Sense organ detection is predetermined, like snake eyes detect movement and not things what stay put.
Not able to discern=predetermination=perception what hasn't been ceased.

If perception ceases it cancels the all-positions-at-once and you can know from a cause and effect what position is on. Being able to seclude that position means entering 1st jhana, it is accompanied with pleasure, not getting clung to that position you can let it absorb into the body 2nd jhana pleasure disappears and at third jhana craving arises, fire it increases so far till resistance obsession is abandoned..

I think the cessation of perception is needed in order to capture the perceiver, basically you capture yourself via cause and effect to liberate that self(awareness release) from heart to the head. The self appears in front of you sucking you into darkness and you gain knowledge and further happenings like gigantic self absorbs minor self.

Perception, observer, self, atman, soul, awareness.. is one and the same thing. It can be put into mundane sphere if you take into account it is known by cause and effect at some point, the thing appears like it is real and is part of your observing sense.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:32 pm

Namaste Auto
Perception, observer, self, atman, soul, awareness.. is one and the same thing.
To some degree yes, in the study of consciousness we do need more exact terms, to say that Atma is perception may not be correct, due to perception be able to change, to say Atma can project itself via perception maybe correct, but to understand this in written form we need the texts which describe consciousness in a much broader way, in fact in Sanskrit the language represents nothing other than consciousness and how it descends into mind and sense consciousness where mind and sense consciousness is known as sleeping state and is woken up by cit and its expansions, right understanding of the grammar and the lay out of the text can help expand the language skills to describe consciousness in its entirety, that can take time and also applying practices for purification of the mind, which are all based and founded on awareness.

Also with Awareness, there is awareness and what is the object of awareness, when awareness mixes with an object of awareness it will bring up a certain type of consciousness that is neither the object or the initial awareness, take eating a cake for example, this is sense consciousness, but awareness in its original form will not change, it can remain silent and inactive and just observe Sākṣīi or the witnessing consciousness, Atma is not limited to just being Sākṣī, Atma can expand without losing its inherent nature through the Sākṣī but not as sense data consciousness.

Each sutta, or text will have its own context and can be understood independently without any real need to be crossed reference. Intellect is only really given credible status when there is a certain level of awareness~ or wisdom buddhi,Prajñā.

Bud~ awake
dhi~ supramundane intellect, above normal mind and senses consciousness

Pra~preceding, intermediate

jñā~ original awareness


My recent reflections and seemed to be the essence of this latest Purnima which was Guru Purnima is communicating consciousness which can be universally applicable to all. If mind gets stuck in literal definitions of awareness, Soul, Atma, Brahman, Buddha, Tathagatha there will obviously be stumbling block for the literal because they are spelt differently and may apply to some other traditions, but in essence there maybe no difference at all. It is the essence that we seek to know and how to communicate it to the world.

Atma is beyond all speech, all vidyas or conscious knowledge's, but then again in Upanishads~ Kena as one source is that Brahman is source of all speech and the workings of the 5 senses but having no quality of the lokas or worldly attribute. If this gets translated in the wrong way then Brahman can have a mundane meaning given to it, rather than describing the jivanmukta or liberated human being, when its really describing how Brahman can be communicated by the awakened ones who still live in the world and function as a normal human being. This was the title of Gotama Buddha~ Tathāgata.

Im not sure how any peace can be had by literal understanding of the dharma shastras and other texts , even as a study unless its isolated completely, then it would form an abstract limitation and becomes something which is un~natural, adharma.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:26 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:32 pm
Namaste Auto
Perception, observer, self, atman, soul, awareness.. is one and the same thing.
To some degree yes, in the study of consciousness we do need more exact terms, to say that Atma is perception may not be correct, due to perception be able to change, to say Atma can project itself via perception maybe correct, but to understand this in written form we need the texts which describe consciousness in a much broader way, in fact in Sanskrit the language represents nothing other than consciousness and how it descends into mind and sense consciousness where mind and sense consciousness is known as sleeping state and is woken up by cit and its expansions, right understanding of the grammar and the lay out of the text can help expand the language skills to describe consciousness in its entirety, that can take time and also applying practices for purification of the mind, which are all based and founded on awareness.

Also with Awareness, there is awareness and what is the object of awareness, when awareness mixes with an object of awareness it will bring up a certain type of consciousness that is neither the object or the initial awareness, take eating a cake for example, this is sense consciousness, but awareness in its original form will not change, it can remain silent and inactive and just observe Sākṣīi or the witnessing consciousness, Atma is not limited to just being Sākṣī, Atma can expand without losing its inherent nature through the Sākṣī but not as sense data consciousness.

Each sutta, or text will have its own context and can be understood independently without any real need to be crossed reference. Intellect is only really given credible status when there is a certain level of awareness~ or wisdom buddhi,Prajñā.

Bud~ awake
dhi~ supramundane intellect, above normal mind and senses consciousness

Pra~preceding, intermediate

jñā~ original awareness


My recent reflections and seemed to be the essence of this latest Purnima which was Guru Purnima is communicating consciousness which can be universally applicable to all. If mind gets stuck in literal definitions of awareness, Soul, Atma, Brahman, Buddha, Tathagatha there will obviously be stumbling block for the literal because they are spelt differently and may apply to some other traditions, but in essence there maybe no difference at all. It is the essence that we seek to know and how to communicate it to the world.

Atma is beyond all speech, all vidyas or conscious knowledge's, but then again in Upanishads~ Kena as one source is that Brahman is source of all speech and the workings of the 5 senses but having no quality of the lokas or worldly attribute. If this gets translated in the wrong way then Brahman can have a mundane meaning given to it, rather than describing the jivanmukta or liberated human being, when its really describing how Brahman can be communicated by the awakened ones who still live in the world and function as a normal human being. This was the title of Gotama Buddha~ Tathāgata.

Im not sure how any peace can be had by literal understanding of the dharma shastras and other texts , even as a study unless its isolated completely, then it would form an abstract limitation and becomes something which is un~natural, adharma.

:anjali:
i tried to figure out what mindfulness is in a way it would click and 100 percent know what it is, i searched key word mindfulness and read and reread. Mind-ful-ness. As i didn't know what the 'ful', 'ness' supposed to morf the meaning of the mind into. If i translate mind into my own language.
mind=sense
ful- adjective
ness- denoting a condition

Now taking that into account if i translate from my own language back to english it is 'sensuality'. It makes sense now: Mindfulness=sensuality.

So now how i do it into jhana.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured.
Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.
.
"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.
bramhacharya should make one sensitive to pleasure for sure and then guarding senses to not go for dirty stuff eventually pleasure born from abstinence rises./ascetism.
Result is you will notice pleasure there where previously you didn't and the perception what previously arose won't arise anymore.

This process goes through the body too, there are body places, organ dependent perceptions. also what is in head and help with the external object is done in a torso too and there you have substance and function..
"In whatever way one touches cessation, Potthapada, that's the way I describe the peak of perception. [6] That's how I describe one peak of perception and many peaks of perception."
can't stay in mind always, i need separately bring my awareness into body, make things slow to be able to stop and another thing happen,.. till i lose awareness then i appear somewhere else. There is a place where i appear where past activities will be reminded and they burn me, embarassment, shame arises etc. Some place is lots of routine work the sensations there are hard to bear but cultivating these sensations can see them on a better place, also you can cultivate others, people have mindstates they vent over, you can tune into it and get to the body.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm

What is mindfulness, there are many varieties of practice of mindfulness.

I try to first see it from both the texts and from experience and align the two for both internal and external translations. Within Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon. This practice of vitakka is then further refined to the breath for building up steadiness of the mind vichara. This is then again further refined and applied to mind states that arise and cease and again awareness of the causes and conditions that appear with naturally occurring phenomenon, vichara will strengthen and jhanas will spontaneously arises based on this simple process, jhanas are not a practice, they are fruits of practice, samadhi is the combining together or unification of facilitating compounds, paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment to guide the chitta back to jhana and samadhi states. vi represents mind based observation from the inner perspective in the cultivation of the 4 rupa Jhanas to reach upekkhā qualified equanimity of the mind and sense base consciousness and then vipassana or insight seeing which arises and gained within the process of observation. That is the first form of Satipaṭṭhāna, and easily understood as a process by practitioners, but made complicated by literal nonintellectuals, mundane scholars and mental speculators which rely and dictionary meanings.

This is the first part of the cultivation of Satipaṭṭhāna, mindfulness of body, breathing and mind patterns,these are related to the worldly dhammas for cultivation of the mind and sense based human being.

Then there are the higher dhammas abhidhammas of Satipaṭṭhāna, Sati-upaṭṭhāna, these are mindfull states past the qualified levels of equanimity and the 4 rupa jhanas or entrance into wisdom states paññā or the immaterial states, some modern psychologists will call this the subconscious, which is nothing short of a dull answer, Sati-upaṭṭhāna paññā states give direct understanding of Buddha~ Tathāgata which is both a pali and Sanskrit word equally but can be best translated via Sanskrit etymology.

Sati in Sanskrit is smriti, often known within the Vedic traditions as a pramana~authority of certain portion of the texts, smriti also has an inner pramana which is conscious based. Smṛti is translated as that which is remembered, when Dharma Chaskhu, Dhamma- Chakkhu wisdom eye opens in the paññā arupa states remembrance, sati Smriti of what is forgotten directly impacts on the chitta.


:anjali:

auto
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:34 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm
What is mindfulness, there are many varieties of practice of mindfulness.

I try to first see it from both the texts and from experience and align the two for both internal and external translations. Within Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon. This practice of vitakka is then further refined to the breath for building up steadiness of the mind vichara. This is then again further refined and applied to mind states that arise and cease and again awareness of the causes and conditions that appear with naturally occurring phenomenon, vichara will strengthen and jhanas will spontaneously arises based on this simple process, jhanas are not a practice, they are fruits of practice, samadhi is the combining together or unification of facilitating compounds, paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment to guide the chitta back to jhana and samadhi states. vi represents mind based observation from the inner perspective in the cultivation of the 4 rupa Jhanas to reach upekkhā qualified equanimity of the mind and sense base consciousness and then vipassana or insight seeing which arises and gained within the process of observation. That is the first form of Satipaṭṭhāna, and easily understood as a process by practitioners, but made complicated by literal nonintellectuals, mundane scholars and mental speculators which rely and dictionary meanings.

This is the first part of the cultivation of Satipaṭṭhāna, mindfulness of body, breathing and mind patterns,these are related to the worldly dhammas for cultivation of the mind and sense based human being.

Then there are the higher dhammas abhidhammas of Satipaṭṭhāna, Sati-upaṭṭhāna, these are mindfull states past the qualified levels of equanimity and the 4 rupa jhanas or entrance into wisdom states paññā or the immaterial states, some modern psychologists will call this the subconscious, which is nothing short of a dull answer, Sati-upaṭṭhāna paññā states give direct understanding of Buddha~ Tathāgata which is both a pali and Sanskrit word equally but can be best translated via Sanskrit etymology.

Sati in Sanskrit is smriti, often known within the Vedic traditions as a pramana~authority of certain portion of the texts, smriti also has an inner pramana which is conscious based. Smṛti is translated as that which is remembered, when Dharma Chaskhu, Dhamma- Chakkhu wisdom eye opens in the paññā arupa states remembrance, sati Smriti of what is forgotten directly impacts on the chitta.


:anjali:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
..
And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva, Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... the Tusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas of Brahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos."
So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas.
literal or esoteric meaning?
...But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
bascially as you can see the buddha does awaken directly to something what is in cosmos. There is a hint that there is a structure to be come aware of and it can be set into motion.
I would start looking for the structures in the body itself, so well Buddha prolly is a HIGH being, no idea how long have been cultivated and waht levels actually so he could set motion something on a earth itself..

markandeya
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 pm

Namaste Auto

More esoteric or subtle rather than literal, perhaps its better to say subjective objectivity, all sentient beings are living under the same laws, there are state and country laws and then there are bigger universal laws, that govern both the inner and outer experience of sentient beings and the larger outwardly shared empirical view of the universe and beyond.

Cosmology is one of my main studies the study of being and of course practices, inner and outer manifestation and the interdependent connection, the suttas are rich in subtle esoteric sciences, , but its not that easy to talk about these things in public due to the mass of misinformation and misunderstanding from empirical sciences, pseudo sciences and the religious faith based crowd, although its quite a simple topic, perhaps best kept in oral traditions where language can flow more smoothly and has a direct impact on being and states of consciousness. Direct association with the wise is always recommended.

According to all Dharma manuals manifestation or the final product of experience has a subtle cause, the awakened beings have more direct insight into hows these work on a universal level. There is an outward perception that is directly linked to a subtle inward perception, the passages that you quotes are the inward perception of the universe~subjective objectivity.

Side note the Buddha did not attain awakening, siddharta Gotama attained the awakened state Buddha~Tathāgata.

I would say its the right track to first start off with contemplation of the body which then leads to better understanding of the mind and the see how they are in fact not different which leads one further into the nature of consciousness, which is always expanding one way or another.

Much to discover when the fascination of the outward sense and mind consciousness are turned more inwards or to trace out the subtle causes.

:namaste:

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