Atman

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot »

markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pmWhat is mindfulness
Mindfulness is to 'remember' or 'keep in mind' or 'non-forgetfulness' and specifically refers to keeping 'Right View' in the mind. 'Mindfulness' works together wth 'sampajanna' ('ready/situational wisdom'). The video below might help.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pmI try to first see it from both the texts
To see it from the texts is to quote the texts. The texts say, for example:
"What is sammasati? Sati means to bear in mind or bring to mind. Sati is the state of recollecting, the state of remembering, the state of non-fading, the state of non-forgetting. [Vbh.105, 286]
:candle:
markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pmWithin Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon.
'Attention' is not 'mindfulness'.
markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pmThis is the first part of the cultivation of Satipaṭṭhāna, mindfulness of body, breathing and mind patterns,these are related to the worldly dhammas for cultivation of the mind and sense based human being.
Its mindfulness towards the body rather than mindfulness of the body. When clinging to the body as "Atman" or "Self" or "Me" or "Brahma" is abandoned and not permitted to arise (until the reality of Non-Atman is clearly seen directly) this is the practise of mindfulness.

Using vitakka to direct consciousness to observe or pay attention to the body when the body is regarded as "Self" or "Atman" or "Beautiful" is not mindfulness, such as pictured below:
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markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya »

whats your understanding of right view Doodoot. Correct theoretical knowledge of translated texts.

Where in any of the vedanta texts is the Body regarded as the Atma,
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 amwhats your understanding of right view Doodoot.
For me, Right View can be the intellectual understanding that craving & attachment bring suffering therefore the non-intellectual practical role of mindfulness is to always keep the mind free from craving, attachment & Atman until the vipassana (clear seeing) occurs that the five aggregates are inherently Not-Atman.
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 amCorrect theoretical knowledge of translated texts.
The texts are often clear concise descriptions of enlightenment (unlike pages upon pages of internet posts of what are often deluded personal experiences).
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:30 amWhere in any of the vedanta texts is the Body regarded as the Atma,
I referred to the body because your posts referred to the body. Satipatthana involves EVERYTHING as an object of contemplation. EVERYTHING in Buddhism is Non-Atman. Just because this subforum is called "Connections to Other Paths" does not mean every aspect of every other path has a connection to Buddhism. In short, according to the Buddhist Path, any view of "Atman" that arises is a failure or non-operation of Right Mindfulness.

Kind regards :smile:
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya »

Right intellectual view can help to some degree, but that has limitation as samma ditthi is more a moment to moment cognitive direction into the conditions or the naturally occurring phenomenon in awareness.

Your free to pick and choose words at your discretion, but if your going to make claims that Atma is the body according to vedantic traditions then you will need to find suitable quotations from their texts and traditions to back up your claim.

If you cant see the synthesis that is only your personal interpretation.

What I have noticed over the years within most Buddhist traditions is that more intutive people seem to know there is something more than just negation of what is passing idenitity and often just get confused with the literal translations.

I covered both sides of satipatthana. Intellectual understanding will only have short impact on the conditions, a bit like a white sugar rush, it just becomes a habit of stimulation and is another form of papancha which often leads to biased opinions. :reading:
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 amRight intellectual view can help to some degree
Intellectual understanding is very important for communication because if two people cannot agree upon what a dog is, for example, there will be lots of confusion in trying to communicate.
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am but that has limitation as samma ditthi is more a moment to moment cognitive direction
No its not. Samma ditthi is the "forerunner" of the path (MN 117). At the very beginning, it is mostly intellectual. The above is an example of lack of intellectual understanding that leads to a break-down in communication.
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 aminto the conditions or the naturally occurring phenomenon in awareness.
No. Vipassana (clear seeing) into the nature of phenomena is not "Samma Ditthi". :roll:
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 amI covered both sides of satipatthana.
No. You have only posted your personal idiosyncratic opinions about it. Your personal opinions about it have as much validity as mine or Groucho Marx.
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 amIntellectual understanding will only have short impact on the conditions, a bit like a white sugar rush, it just becomes a habit of stimulation and is another form of papancha which often leads to biased opinions.
No. Right intellectual understanding guides right practice. This is why what you post, imo, is wrong practise. It started Buddhism nearly years ago. Your posts remind me of the things those beginners talked about; such as "mindfulness" is "attention" or "observing". :lol:

The fact, you post on this forum, I refute what you post, and you keep changing the goal-posts in avoiding the subject matters. ;) :mrgreen:
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Its sati that brings paññā to any given moment. Your intellectual writings here are the complete opposite to mine. :rofl:
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 am
markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Its sati that brings paññā to any given moment. Your intellectual writings here are the complete opposite to mine. :rofl:

Thanks for the compliment.

:anjali:
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm Smṛti is translated as that which is remembered, when Dharma Chaskhu, Dhamma- Chakkhu wisdom eye opens in the paññā arupa states remembrance, sati Smriti of what is forgotten directly impacts on the chitta.
The above seems to say: "sati Smriti (remembering) of what is forgotten happens when the Wisdom Eye opens with paññā" . :? So when enlightenment happens, what exactly is suddenly remembered that was somehow forgotten? :?
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:01 amThanks for the compliment.
Its not a compliment when your view is also the direct opposite of the Lord Buddha and renowned meditation monks. :roll:
markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pm paññā will help to bring sati back to any given moment
Since paññā is a supreme dhamma, why would paññā need to bring back sati? Why would a mind mature in wisdom need sati? :shrug:
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 amAs i said ...
Things posted are questioned or addressed; which are avoided.
markandeya wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:17 am And maybe you could share you actual experience of meditation and application of the dharma practices and under which teachers you have been personally taught by.
The above approach, for me to engage in, is quite childish and immature. It seems we disagree on close to everything. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Atman

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markandeya wrote: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:10 pmIWithin Vipassana usually the process starts with attention to the body and its sensations, to notice the flow and movement and non static waves of body sensations, this is a vitakka practice or applying ones sati or attention/thought to gross phenomenon from an inner point of view or from the inner mind to notice the arising and ceasing of sensations and feelings within the body and the causes and conditions of naturally arising phenomenon. This practice of vitakka is then further refined to the breath for building up steadiness of the mind vichara....
The above post is unusual, in claiming vitakka or thinking is the way to develop the path. The above approach, for me to engage in, is quite childish and immature. I practised this Hindu or Yogic meditation during my first six weeks of practise, reading yogic books like Ajahn Lee's Keeping the Breath in Mind. However, the Buddha appeared to teach different to this, namely, complete abandonment or, to borrow a simplistic term, surrender.
And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10


a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go.

MN 118
The old Thai monk described the difference between the Buddha's method and the Markandeya Yogic method, as follows:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.
:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Atman

Post by auto »

markandeya wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:11 pm Namaste Auto

More esoteric or subtle rather than literal, perhaps its better to say subjective objectivity, all sentient beings are living under the same laws, there are state and country laws and then there are bigger universal laws, that govern both the inner and outer experience of sentient beings and the larger outwardly shared empirical view of the universe and beyond.

Cosmology is one of my main studies the study of being and of course practices, inner and outer manifestation and the interdependent connection, the suttas are rich in subtle esoteric sciences, , but its not that easy to talk about these things in public due to the mass of misinformation and misunderstanding from empirical sciences, pseudo sciences and the religious faith based crowd, although its quite a simple topic, perhaps best kept in oral traditions where language can flow more smoothly and has a direct impact on being and states of consciousness. Direct association with the wise is always recommended.

According to all Dharma manuals manifestation or the final product of experience has a subtle cause, the awakened beings have more direct insight into hows these work on a universal level. There is an outward perception that is directly linked to a subtle inward perception, the passages that you quotes are the inward perception of the universe~subjective objectivity.

Side note the Buddha did not attain awakening, siddharta Gotama attained the awakened state Buddha~Tathāgata.

I would say its the right track to first start off with contemplation of the body which then leads to better understanding of the mind and the see how they are in fact not different which leads one further into the nature of consciousness, which is always expanding one way or another.

Much to discover when the fascination of the outward sense and mind consciousness are turned more inwards or to trace out the subtle causes.

:namaste:
Subjective objective, hmm could that be that internal organs are feelings and sense organs are perception.

subjective=feelings
objective=perception

If perception and feeling cease then i come aware and with a knowledge i came aware or conscious. Basically i don't see when i disappear but after coming aware i see i was away.
There is next step, i will see arising of sensations, i am able to do that because of previous step. Next step is seeing cessation of sensation.
That's unbinding from a sensation so you wouldn't cling to it.

Perception could be you are top or middle or low, subjective is top middle and low are same. If you decide to go away, going very far, you are still here subjectively.
To unbind, cessation of perception and feeling has to happen.

self is a sensation, but it can't be removed, it is by resolved the knot, anatta is realized.
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Re: Atman

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:25 am
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pmFirstly, I’m not an expert on Hinduism or Atman, but I’ve been reading some of the Hindu views on Atman, which the Buddha seems to reject in the Suttas, or is he??
The Buddha was concerned with the sense of "possessiveness" aka "attachment". The Buddha was concerned with not regarding things as "I" and "mine" because such possessiveness & attachment is suffering (stressful).
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pmThe Upanishads (Katha Upanisad) talk about 2 selves, 1. the separate Ego self, and, 2. the indivisible Atman self.
Why don't you kindly quote the Upanishads and provide a link. Thanks. Also, the Upanishads are never mentioned in the Pali suttas thus appear were either not known in the Buddha's geographical region or were not composed until after the Buddha. The Pali suttas only mention the four Veda.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm They say that the separate self Is illusion, impermanent and suffering, whereas the indivisible self is reality, permanent, bliss.
In Buddhism there is no invisible self. The Pali suttas say any type of consciousness, either gross or subtle, is not a self (SN 22.59); its only an element (dhatu) of nature (MN 115). The Pali suttas say "unity", "oneness" or "the indivisible" is not-self (MN 1).
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm1. Did the Buddha, in the Suttas, ever differentiate between the 2 selves talked of in the Upanishads?
No.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm He says that what is impermanent, is unsatisfying and not-self, which would seem to be rejecting the Upanishad impermanent ego self
Yes. Any type of mental experience, be it gross or subtle, is not-self. Nibbana, the supreme thing, is not-self. Everything without exception is not-self.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm, but I cannot see if he rejects the Upanishad permanent Atman self anywhere??
Buddha reject self in everything, including Nibbana, the supreme thing. Refer to MN 1; DN 1; Dhp 279, SN 3.136, etc.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pmDoes he say what is permanent is suffering?
No. Nibbana is permanent and not suffering. But Nibbana is something real. Where as any idea or concept of "self" is merely that; namely, a concept, idea, label, etc. Please look into your own mind. "Self" is a thought or label. There is no "self" without imputing a name, label, concept or idea. Thus ideas & concepts are not permanent.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pmSo, is it the case that the Buddha refused to answer questions about the self (SN:44.10) as they do not lead to the end of suffering, and he therefore did not say that there is, or is not a self??
No. In the discussion in SN 44.10, the term "anatta" ("not-self") is never mentioned. In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asks about "atthattā" and "natthattā".
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm And, where he is refusing to answer, are the questions relating to both the Upanishad ego impermanent self and the Atman permanent self, or just the permanent Atman self?
No. Irrelevant. In SN 44.10, the wanderer asks: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?". Vacchagotta never asked a question that was free from self-view. If Vacchagotta asked: "Are the five aggregates self?", the Buddha would have probably answered.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm Perhaps it would help to know what kind of self Vacchagotta believed, In and was asking about.
In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asked:
“kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthattā”ti?

Does the self exist?

“Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, natthattā”ti?

Does the self non-exist?
However, these questions were obviously more complicated & "personal" than as simply translated above because the Buddha said to Ananda:
if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist’, Vacchagotta —who is already confused— would have got even more confused, thinking:‘It seems that the self that I once had no longer exists.’”
Thus, as I posted, Vacchagotta, who was not fluent in Buddhism thus his words do not represent Buddhism, probably asked: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?".
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm From a Hindu website; The experience of Atman
This is false. There is no Atman. I do not even have to read the text to say there is no such thing as Atman, apart from imagination & conceptualizing.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm It can only be experienced when all the sensory activity ceases to have an impact on the mind, when the mind itself is freed from the movement of thoughts and sense objects, and the torment of desires, which are the prime cause of all human activity and suffering, and subsides into quietude.
Correct. But the above experience is not "Atman". The above experience is peace, stillness, clarity, etc (aka nibbana). However, if the tendency to desires has not been uprooted & destoyed, it is final Nibbana but only a taste of nibbana.
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm The experience of the Self arises "When the mind and the five senses are stilled and when the intellect is stilled ....They say that Yoga is complete stillness in which one enters that state of Oneness."
No. The illusion, experience or impression of "Oneness" may arise but there is no "Self" arising. "Self" is always an "idea" or "concept". The mind may certainly feel "One" but the idea of "Self", "Atman", "Brahma" or "God" is a significant discursive departure from "Oneness".
DarrenM wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm 1. How would the Buddha explain this experience?. Is it similar to any meditative attainments the Buddha described? Or would he explain it as a Fabrication?
Yes. It is a fabrication (with a lower case "f", as explained explicitly in SN 22.81). The fabrication of "Atman", "God", etc, is for minds unable to be Void (Sunnata).
markandeya wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:04 pmIts a bit like walking into a protestant church and asking what they think of Catholics
The fabrication of "Atman", "Brahman", "God", etc, is for mind unable to be Void (Sunnata). It is like when little children cling to parents or authority figures. :roll:

Never in the Sutta Buddha has denied the Self. Na me so atta, is not a negation of the Self, but of what the Self is not. Via Negativa. Not this not that. etc. 2000 years of misunderstandings thanking to most of the theravada and mahayana misleading teaching. Nirvana is the supreme Self, like Vasdubandhu also write clearly, you don't have to 'believe' me believe Vasubandhu and the Sutra.
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Re: Atman

Post by drun »

and who are you to answer yes, no, like you were in possession of the Truth? read the Sutta with attention and you'll see Buddha never spoke of a doctrine of not self or non self. Buddha is exactly the Self, actually, among the various selves- aggregates time bound.
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Re: Atman

Post by Spiny Norman »

markandeya wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 pm Its just word play and conceptual thinking doodoot and putting everything in a cup.

i have no real response for you. Some sympathy, but only a degree.

If this was in another forum, not connection to other paths I may continue, but even then it would be difficult because firstly your understanding of Atma and Upanishads and the Pali Language is minus zero, if it was zero there would be some scope to work with.

:namaste:
At the risk of stating the obvious, a Theravada Buddhist forum isn't a good place to explore Atman.
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot »

drun wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:19 pm Never in the Sutta Buddha has denied the Self.
Wrong internet forum; wrong doctrine; wrong view. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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