Atman

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
DarrenM
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Atman

Post by DarrenM » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm

Firstly, I’m not an expert on Hinduism or Atman, but I’ve been reading some of the Hindu views on Atman, which the Buddha seems to reject in the Suttas, or is he??

The Upanishads (Katha Upanisad) talk about 2 selves, 1. the separate Ego self, and, 2. the indivisible Atman self. They say that the separate self Is illusion, impermanent and suffering, whereas the indivisible self is reality, permanent, bliss.

Questions
1. Did the Buddha, in the Suttas, ever differentiate between the 2 selves talked of in the Upanishads? He says that what is impermanent,is suffering and not-self, which would seem to be rejecting the Upanishad impermanent ego self, but I cannot see if he rejects the Upanishad permanent Atman self anywhere?? Does he say what is permanent is suffering?

2. So, is it the case that the Buddha refused to answer questions about the self (SN:44.10) as they do not lead to the end of suffering, and he therefore did not say that there is, or is not a self?? And, where he is refusing to answer, are the questions relating to both the Upanishad ego impermanent self and the Atman permanent self, or just the permanent Atman self?
Perhaps it would help to know what kind of self Vacchagotta believed, In and was asking about.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
From a Hindu website; The experience of Atman
It can only be experienced when all the sensory activity ceases to have an impact on the mind, when the mind itself is freed from the movement of thoughts and sense objects, and the torment of desires, which are the prime cause of all human activity and suffering, and subsides into quietude. The experience of the Self arises "When the mind and the five senses are stilled and when the intellect is stilled ....They say that Yoga is complete stillness in which one enters that state of Oneness."

Question
1. How would the Buddha explain this experience?. Is it similar to any meditative attainments the Buddha described? Or would he explain it as a Fabrication?

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Atman

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:54 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

markandeya
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:04 pm

Namaste Darren

Your probably in the wrong place to ask this type of question

Its a bit like walking into a protestant church and asking what they think of Catholics

You wont get answer without any personal bias. Gotama didnt talk in English for a start.

So unless there is a real honest study done between Pali and Sanskrit (which dont have any real equivalents in modern English ) you wont find an answer, and all inquiry should be accompanied with practice, so its a void question here,practice is a bigger question and will deal more directly with current state of consciousness and to work with that . So Its not really important, what cant be created cant be destroyed so what ever is there no matter what name or term we give to it will remain. Beliefs, ideas, thoughts and speculations change nothing and mostly just increase ignorance.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:25 am

DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Firstly, I’m not an expert on Hinduism or Atman, but I’ve been reading some of the Hindu views on Atman, which the Buddha seems to reject in the Suttas, or is he??
The Buddha was concerned with the sense of "possessiveness" aka "attachment". The Buddha was concerned with not regarding things as "I" and "mine" because such possessiveness & attachment is suffering (stressful).
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
The Upanishads (Katha Upanisad) talk about 2 selves, 1. the separate Ego self, and, 2. the indivisible Atman self.
Why don't you kindly quote the Upanishads and provide a link. Thanks. Also, the Upanishads are never mentioned in the Pali suttas thus appear were either not known in the Buddha's geographical region or were not composed until after the Buddha. The Pali suttas only mention the four Veda.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
They say that the separate self Is illusion, impermanent and suffering, whereas the indivisible self is reality, permanent, bliss.
In Buddhism there is no invisible self. The Pali suttas say any type of consciousness, either gross or subtle, is not a self (SN 22.59); its only an element (dhatu) of nature (MN 115). The Pali suttas say "unity", "oneness" or "the indivisible" is not-self (MN 1).
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
1. Did the Buddha, in the Suttas, ever differentiate between the 2 selves talked of in the Upanishads?
No.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
He says that what is impermanent, is unsatisfying and not-self, which would seem to be rejecting the Upanishad impermanent ego self
Yes. Any type of mental experience, be it gross or subtle, is not-self. Nibbana, the supreme thing, is not-self. Everything without exception is not-self.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
, but I cannot see if he rejects the Upanishad permanent Atman self anywhere??
Buddha reject self in everything, including Nibbana, the supreme thing. Refer to MN 1; DN 1; Dhp 279, SN 3.136, etc.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Does he say what is permanent is suffering?
No. Nibbana is permanent and not suffering. But Nibbana is something real. Where as any idea or concept of "self" is merely that; namely, a concept, idea, label, etc. Please look into your own mind. "Self" is a thought or label. There is no "self" without imputing a name, label, concept or idea. Thus ideas & concepts are not permanent.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
So, is it the case that the Buddha refused to answer questions about the self (SN:44.10) as they do not lead to the end of suffering, and he therefore did not say that there is, or is not a self??
No. In the discussion in SN 44.10, the term "anatta" ("not-self") is never mentioned. In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asks about "atthattā" and "natthattā".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
And, where he is refusing to answer, are the questions relating to both the Upanishad ego impermanent self and the Atman permanent self, or just the permanent Atman self?
No. Irrelevant. In SN 44.10, the wanderer asks: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?". Vacchagotta never asked a question that was free from self-view. If Vacchagotta asked: "Are the five aggregates self?", the Buddha would have probably answered.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Perhaps it would help to know what kind of self Vacchagotta believed, In and was asking about.
In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asked:
“kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthattā”ti?

Does the self exist?

“Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, natthattā”ti?

Does the self non-exist?
However, these questions were obviously more complicated & "personal" than as simply translated above because the Buddha said to Ananda:
if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist’, Vacchagotta —who is already confused— would have got even more confused, thinking:‘It seems that the self that I once had no longer exists.’”
Thus, as I posted, Vacchagotta, who was not fluent in Buddhism thus his words do not represent Buddhism, probably asked: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
From a Hindu website; The experience of Atman
This is false. There is no Atman. I do not even have to read the text to say there is no such thing as Atman, apart from imagination & conceptualizing.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
It can only be experienced when all the sensory activity ceases to have an impact on the mind, when the mind itself is freed from the movement of thoughts and sense objects, and the torment of desires, which are the prime cause of all human activity and suffering, and subsides into quietude.
Correct. But the above experience is not "Atman". The above experience is peace, stillness, clarity, etc (aka nibbana). However, if the tendency to desires has not been uprooted & destoyed, it is final Nibbana but only a taste of nibbana.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
The experience of the Self arises "When the mind and the five senses are stilled and when the intellect is stilled ....They say that Yoga is complete stillness in which one enters that state of Oneness."
No. The illusion, experience or impression of "Oneness" may arise but there is no "Self" arising. "Self" is always an "idea" or "concept". The mind may certainly feel "One" but the idea of "Self", "Atman", "Brahma" or "God" is a significant discursive departure from "Oneness".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
1. How would the Buddha explain this experience?. Is it similar to any meditative attainments the Buddha described? Or would he explain it as a Fabrication?
Yes. It is a fabrication (with a lower case "f", as explained explicitly in SN 22.81). The fabrication of "Atman", "God", etc, is for minds unable to be Void (Sunnata).
markandeya wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:04 pm
Its a bit like walking into a protestant church and asking what they think of Catholics
The fabrication of "Atman", "Brahman", "God", etc, is for mind unable to be Void (Sunnata). It is like when little children cling to parents or authority figures. :roll:
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DarrenM
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Re: Atman

Post by DarrenM » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:59 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:54 pm
Have you read Brahmajala Sutta?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
Yes. Thankyou.

DarrenM
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Atman

Post by DarrenM » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:25 am
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Firstly, I’m not an expert on Hinduism or Atman, but I’ve been reading some of the Hindu views on Atman, which the Buddha seems to reject in the Suttas, or is he??
The Buddha was concerned with the sense of "possessiveness" aka "attachment". The Buddha was concerned with not regarding things as "I" and "mine" because such possessiveness & attachment is suffering (stressful).
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
The Upanishads (Katha Upanisad) talk about 2 selves, 1. the separate Ego self, and, 2. the indivisible Atman self.
Why don't you kindly quote the Upanishads and provide a link. Thanks. Also, the Upanishads are never mentioned in the Pali suttas thus appear were either not known in the Buddha's geographical region or were not composed until after the Buddha. The Pali suttas only mention the four Veda.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
They say that the separate self Is illusion, impermanent and suffering, whereas the indivisible self is reality, permanent, bliss.
In Buddhism there is no invisible self. The Pali suttas say any type of consciousness, either gross or subtle, is not a self (SN 22.59); its only an element (dhatu) of nature (MN 115). The Pali suttas say "unity", "oneness" or "the indivisible" is not-self (MN 1).
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
1. Did the Buddha, in the Suttas, ever differentiate between the 2 selves talked of in the Upanishads?
No.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
He says that what is impermanent, is unsatisfying and not-self, which would seem to be rejecting the Upanishad impermanent ego self
Yes. Any type of mental experience, be it gross or subtle, is not-self. Nibbana, the supreme thing, is not-self. Everything without exception is not-self.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
, but I cannot see if he rejects the Upanishad permanent Atman self anywhere??
Buddha reject self in everything, including Nibbana, the supreme thing. Refer to MN 1; DN 1; Dhp 279, SN 3.136, etc.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Does he say what is permanent is suffering?
No. Nibbana is permanent and not suffering. But Nibbana is something real. Where as any idea or concept of "self" is merely that; namely, a concept, idea, label, etc. Please look into your own mind. "Self" is a thought or label. There is no "self" without imputing a name, label, concept or idea. Thus ideas & concepts are not permanent.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
So, is it the case that the Buddha refused to answer questions about the self (SN:44.10) as they do not lead to the end of suffering, and he therefore did not say that there is, or is not a self??
No. In the discussion in SN 44.10, the term "anatta" ("not-self") is never mentioned. In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asks about "atthattā" and "natthattā".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
And, where he is refusing to answer, are the questions relating to both the Upanishad ego impermanent self and the Atman permanent self, or just the permanent Atman self?
No. Irrelevant. In SN 44.10, the wanderer asks: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?". Vacchagotta never asked a question that was free from self-view. If Vacchagotta asked: "Are the five aggregates self?", the Buddha would have probably answered.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
Perhaps it would help to know what kind of self Vacchagotta believed, In and was asking about.
In SN 44.10, Vacchagotta asked:
“kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthattā”ti?

Does the self exist?

“Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, natthattā”ti?

Does the self non-exist?
However, these questions were obviously more complicated & "personal" than as simply translated above because the Buddha said to Ananda:
if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist’, Vacchagotta —who is already confused— would have got even more confused, thinking:‘It seems that the self that I once had no longer exists.’”
Thus, as I posted, Vacchagotta, who was not fluent in Buddhism thus his words do not represent Buddhism, probably asked: "Am I a self?". "Am I not a self?".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
From a Hindu website; The experience of Atman
This is false. There is no Atman. I do not even have to read the text to say there is no such thing as Atman, apart from imagination & conceptualizing.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
It can only be experienced when all the sensory activity ceases to have an impact on the mind, when the mind itself is freed from the movement of thoughts and sense objects, and the torment of desires, which are the prime cause of all human activity and suffering, and subsides into quietude.
Correct. But the above experience is not "Atman". The above experience is peace, stillness, clarity, etc (aka nibbana). However, if the tendency to desires has not been uprooted & destoyed, it is final Nibbana but only a taste of nibbana.
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
The experience of the Self arises "When the mind and the five senses are stilled and when the intellect is stilled ....They say that Yoga is complete stillness in which one enters that state of Oneness."
No. The illusion, experience or impression of "Oneness" may arise but there is no "Self" arising. "Self" is always an "idea" or "concept". The mind may certainly feel "One" but the idea of "Self", "Atman", "Brahma" or "God" is a significant discursive departure from "Oneness".
DarrenM wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:25 pm
1. How would the Buddha explain this experience?. Is it similar to any meditative attainments the Buddha described? Or would he explain it as a Fabrication?
Yes. It is a fabrication (with a lower case "f", as explained explicitly in SN 22.81). The fabrication of "Atman", "God", etc, is for minds unable to be Void (Sunnata).
markandeya wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:04 pm
Its a bit like walking into a protestant church and asking what they think of Catholics
The fabrication of "Atman", "Brahman", "God", etc, is for mind unable to be Void (Sunnata). It is like when little children cling to parents or authority figures. :roll:
Thankyou for your replies Doot, it has helped clear up some confusion for me. I now see that sometimes 3, sometimes 5 Vedas are mentioned in the Suttas, but the Upanishads are not, probably due to the reasons mentioned by you above, and that they may have been compiled later as a reply to Buddhist doctrine.

I also now understand that there were many types of ‘self’ belief during the Buddhas time, and now during ours, which are just proliferation’s upon some experience, and create a ‘thicket of views’.

DarrenM
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Atman

Post by DarrenM » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:36 am

markandeya wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:04 pm
Namaste Darren

Your probably in the wrong place to ask this type of question

Its a bit like walking into a protestant church and asking what they think of Catholics

You wont get answer without any personal bias. Gotama didnt talk in English for a start.

So unless there is a real honest study done between Pali and Sanskrit (which dont have any real equivalents in modern English ) you wont find an answer, and all inquiry should be accompanied with practice, so its a void question here,practice is a bigger question and will deal more directly with current state of consciousness and to work with that . So Its not really important, what cant be created cant be destroyed so what ever is there no matter what name or term we give to it will remain. Beliefs, ideas, thoughts and speculations change nothing and mostly just increase ignorance.

:anjali:
You’ve got to ask though Mark, I would have thought it’s the right place to ask whether the Buddha rejected the Atman or not?

“Beliefs, ideas, thoughts and speculations change nothing and mostly just increase ignorance.”
I understand that only practise will reveal, but how can we clear up wrong views without thinking or asking questions?

markandeya
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm

Namaste Darren,
You’ve got to ask though Mark, I would have thought it’s the right place to ask whether the Buddha rejected the Atman or not?

“Beliefs, ideas, thoughts and speculations change nothing and mostly just increase ignorance.”
I understand that only practise will reveal, but how can we clear up wrong views without thinking or asking questions?
Ask who and in what way. Firstly Buddha cant be translated into English and both are beyond discursive thoughts and intellectual ideas and all forms of conditioned Neuro-linguistic arrangements. So the question then becomes an introspective one of reflectiion and mindfulness, if that cant be done then maybe it needs somethings taken apart and let go of neti neti, not self not self, like how we are conditioned and the way we have bee taught to learn and accept knowledge, this will help with viveka shakti, power to know the real from the unreal.

Gotama never set up any type of church reading from books, googling other peoples words, or having religious bias, they learned in a different way, try to root out the meaning of sutta and sutra and how they originate in oral traditions and what is the meaning of speech in the original native way, not foreign cultural ignorant or naive translations, its best to do a broad a study as possible, as these are extremely difficult to translated as its a living force into English language structure and the spill over of the oppressive ways people are educated and directed into materialism, who are bent on division an breaking of family ties as given above. Association with the wise is a must.

atta and annatta is only to do with the self within the skandas the conditions the heaps of body mind compound, which is always shifting and changing due to conditions, sunya does not mean void, its the first experience of wisdom pañña~prajna, to see that there is no permanent self existing condition within the conditioned state which is forever in flux. Void is just a Old meaningless word that was given in early translations. To pick up a wifi signal you need the right type of equipment or else its invisible and and wont be picked up or received, when its picked up with the right type of technology, shila, samadhi and pañña then we have access to unlimited Knowledge, unbounded and unconditioned. Just an example......



For consideration

Ditthi~ gets translated a view, as some type of opinion, a belief, an idea that we all finally agree on. Ditthi is a natural cognitive organic view of our states of being and turn to our attention to our feelings, sensations and perception and so on to grasp the state of our present moment condition and then apply the Buddhas teachings, awakened dharma's dhamma's. When that is aligned properly then it samma Ditthi. One may learn all the teachings but will it change their life, will it have a direct profound effect, many scholars few Buddhas.

In Sanskrit the word is Drishti, it often get translated as focused gaze from the yogas sutras of Patanajli Muni, this is just one function of Drishti, which is a cognitive factor of mind within the yoga sutras, threads of union. If anyone shows some understanding of Patanjali we can continue to align Drishti to it real meaning and function.

turiya~Atma Brahman as per Mandukya Upanishad Mantra 7

Nantah-prajnam na bahih-prajnam, nobhayatah-prajnam na prajnana-ghanam na prajnam naprajnam. Adrishtam-avyavaharayam-agrahyam- alakshanam-acintyam-avyapadesyam-ekatma-pratyayasaram, prapancopasarnam santam sivam-advaitam caturtham manyante sa tm sa vijneyah

Atman Brahman is Adrishtam is A means without, without dristi or dhitti realized and understood through prajnam~wisdom

Upansihads are not time bound and before the translations of the monotheistic imperial materialists there were no dates, as they are not bound by time and space or mundane empirical concepts and ordinary time. Dates were given to them, dates were introduced from foreign sources, dates are not important, some precede Gotama and some came after, maybe some more will come in the future or are already here, a brief understanding of Quantum Physics and some the the language used their could be considered if they get it right maybe close to modern Upanishads. No need for us to limit that which has no limits.

Upa means Near
Ni is Transcendent, often translated as without, but is better understood as transcendent or not bound by conditions.

Shad means seat, due to the nature of all Brahma Vidyas or knowledge of the transcendent they are only dealing with consciousness however one defines that, were already way past the skandas and discursive thoughts, ideas, biased beliefs and concepts etc. Shad means seat, original seat of consciousness, so Upanishads means close to the transcendent seat of reality which is always conscious, but how it consciousness we cant define exactly. The mantras of the Upanishads are mediums to convey the Absolute whatever that may be using the highest most refine perception Anubhava pratyaksha, perception directly related in bhava, the preliminary to prem, pure love, unbounded, unconditioned, beyond all ideas and logic and rationality, only prem~ love can fit into this category and can be limited onlyby greed, hatred and ignorance. This is the vision of the rishi.Rishi Visions were visions of Absolute Prem, and what obscures it and how to rid and remove that which impedes~kleshas.

In Vedanta there are two forms of perception pratyaksha, inward or outward perception. If something comes up in connections to other paths I may add somethings and align Vedanta Buddha Dharma.

Another way to way to understand Shad is Shiva, The Auspicious.

Upashiva is within the Pali texts and traditions

Again Upa meaning close to and shiva

“As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“goes to rest and can no longer be discerned,
just so the Sage free from the mental body
goes to rest and can no longer be discerned.”

“The one who has come to rest, is he then nothing?” said venerable Upasīva,
“or is he actually eternally healthy?
Please explain this to me, O Sage,
for this Teaching has been understood by you.”

“There is no measure of the one who has come to rest, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“there is nothing by which they can speak of him,
when everything has been completely removed,
all the pathways for speech are also completely removed.”

sutta nipāta 5.7

the way to the beyond

middle discourses 140

The Analysis of the Elements

Then it occurred to the Buddha: “This respectable person has gone forth in my name. Why don’t I teach him the Dhamma?” So the Buddha said to Pukkusāti: “Mendicant, I shall teach you the Dhamma. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.” “Yes, revered one,” replied Pukkusāti. The Buddha spoke thus:

‘This person has six elements, six fields of contact, and eighteen mental neighborhoods. They have four foundations, standing on which the streams of conceit don’t flow. And when the streams of conceit don’t flow, they’re called a sage at peace. ‘Don’t neglect wisdom, preserve truth, foster generosity, and train only for peace.’ This is the recitation passage for the analysis of the elements.

‘This person has six elements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness. ‘This person has six elements.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has six fields of contact.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? The fields of contact of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. ‘This person has six fields of contact.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has eighteen mental neighborhoods.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Seeing a sight with the eye, they linger in the neighborhood of a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. Hearing a sound with the ear … Smelling an odor with the nose … Tasting a flavor with the tongue … Feeling a touch with the body … Becoming conscious of a thought with the mind, they linger in the neighborhood of a thought that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. So there are six neighborhoods near happiness, six neighborhoods near sadness, and six neighborhoods near equanimity. ‘This person has eighteen mental neighborhoods.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has four foundations.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? The foundations of wisdom, truth, generosity, and peace. ‘This person has four foundations.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘Don’t neglect wisdom, preserve truth, foster generosity, and train only for peace.

Upa and Buddha are like sun and sunrays., sunrays dont light up the sun, they emanate from the sun bringing light, Sun is its own source of power. Surya, Sun is Brahman. Sunraysare Sāriputta (Pali) or Śāriputra (Sanskrit), not these intellectuals that repeat like words without due refining of mind and conditions. Mogallana(pali) is Moon s Mahāmaudgalyāyana(Sanskrit), they are the perfect attendants of Buddha. Lets try an internalize these teachings a little bit.

pukkasati is sitting close to Buddha to finalize his seeking and perfect his sati, sati is srmti remembrance, an awakened remembrance and pukka means perfect.

veda is within both buddhist texts and hindu texts, but these texts are not books, not literatures, no doctrines of belief and acceptance with the mundane outward going senses which includes mind. veda is just knowing something as it is, as mind is refined it gets to know things broader and more complete. Its untranslatable and known only through wisdom.


"As phenomena grow clear to the Brahman--ardent, in jhana--his doubts all vanish when he penetrates the ending of requisite conditions."

Udana 1.2 & 1.3

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/jh ... jhana/6257

I listen to ajahn sujato here and there, I like his approach, he is at least willing to go through things a bit more slowly and mindfully. And not just rely on google, fixed translations and his own Bias and lack of insight.

To conclude for now

सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म तज्जलानिति शान्त उपासीत
(sarvam khaluidam brahman tajjalān iti shānta upāsita) –
"All this (collectively) is Brahman, indeed: what evolves from That, what dissolves in That, what breathes or functions in That, should be closely and calmly studied……." - (Chandogya Upanishad III.14.1)

What cannot be spoken with words, but that whereby words are spoken: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
What cannot be thought with the mind, but that whereby the mind can think: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
What cannot be seen with the eye, but that whereby the eye can see: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
What cannot be heard with the ear, but that whereby the ear can hear: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
What cannot be indrawn with breath, but that whereby breath is indrawn: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.

Kena Upanishad

Did anyone ever see there own brain or colour of their eyes by outward going perception.

We cant fit space into a cup

This usually annoys cups



After all what has been said, none of it is worth a dime if there is no cultivation of the dharma marga, or dhamma magga, path of Truth. Mind and ordinary intellect and people with invested ideas is simple adharma~without knowing the simple reality of truth. They just know relative man made facts. I am sure there will be a few flying in with their books in the hand or calling this new age and then flying in with intent to burn people at the stake and drown them and relying on google and other peoples words andpoor translations, it is Sunday after all..... :thinking:

:anjali:

Brahma-bindu Upanishad
Words strung together in compilations, serve only to
protect and hide knowledge, as husk and chaff the grain ; let
the wise look for the grain and cast away the chaff of words
when that grain of truth has been found.'

auto
Posts: 365
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Re: Atman

Post by auto » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:53 pm

my guess for now is
That nr 2 is the 'here and now' self who talks and goes on with everyday things.
nr 1 ego self comes out when the nr 2 is sleeping.

If you see a snake and you get scared, nr 2 snaps to sleep mode. We can see on funny videos if to scare the goat, goat will start to play dead as a response to biological function and as a result nr 2 here and now self is gone for a while.

No-selfers usually quote

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard.
No-selfers thinking that there is only the experience, no self, its impermanent.

'the seen' is external sense base - bahya ayatana
A third time, Bāhiya said to the Blessed One, "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare & bliss."
see, Bahiya were talking about external dangers. Buddha gave instructions in regards to that.
That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."[2]
also see how Buddha says for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen..when there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. I think what people overlook is that the self regards to the seen is not the 'here and now' self who hears the buddha.


*I afraid Freud will cringe when hear about how the term ego is reduced to mere obstacle or thing to get rid off..while instead it is more like a protection and guide.

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:07 am

markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Ask who and in what way. Firstly Buddha cant be translated into English and both are beyond discursive thoughts and intellectual ideas and all forms of conditioned Neuro-linguistic arrangements.
No. The Buddha did not teach non-thinking as liberation. Your ideas about Buddha appear totally alien & definitely Hindu. I already kindly informed you that Gotama rejected such mental states as liberation prior to enlightenment. If non-thinking was liberation then liberation could not be permanent thus it could not be liberation. This is why Gotama rejected it. Liberation in Buddhism is the destruction of craving. A mind without craving can think when necessary & remain liberated when thinking.
DarrenM wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:36 am
You’ve got to ask though Mark
The poster's name is not "Mark" (who wrote the Christian Gospel). Markandeya is the name of a non-Buddhist.
Markandeya (Sanskrit: मार्कण्‍डेय) is an ancient rishi (sage) from the Hindu tradition, born in the clan of Bhrigu Rishi. He is celebrated as a devotee of both Shiva and Vishnu and is mentioned in a number of stories from the Puranas. The Markandeya Purana especially, comprises a dialogue between Markandeya and a sage called Jaimini, and a number of chapters in the Bhagavata Purana are dedicated to his conversations and prayers. He is also mentioned in the Mahabharata. Markandeya is venerated within all mainstream Hindu traditions.

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:48 am

Cup of tea doodoot

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:36 pm

markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Gotama never set up any type of church reading from books, googling other peoples words, or having religious bias...
How is the above known? Where you there with Gotama in a past life, 2600 years ago? All we have is the suttas, which say Gotama said:
273. Of all the paths the Eightfold Path is the best; of all the truths the Four Noble Truths are the best; of all things passionlessness is the best: of men the Seeing One (the Buddha) is the best.
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
they learned in a different way, try to root out the meaning of sutta and sutra and how they originate in oral traditions and what is the meaning of speech in the original native way, not foreign cultural ignorant or naive translations, its best to do a broad a study as possible, as these are extremely difficult to translated as its a living force into English language structure and the spill over of the oppressive ways people are educated and directed into materialism, who are bent on division an breaking of family ties as given above. Association with the wise is a must.
There appears to be no "family ties" between Buddhism & Hinduism. The Pali suttas say:
'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by the appropriate conduct, and having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.'

DN 16
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
atta and annatta is only to do with the self within the skandas the conditions the heaps of body mind compound, which is always shifting and changing due to conditions, sunya does not mean void
The khandhas appear unrelated to self. The khandhas appear to simply be khandhas. Self appears to be imputed upon the khandhas. As for 'sunna', it means 'void' or 'empty'.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
its the first experience of wisdom pañña~prajna, to see that there is no permanent self existing condition within the conditioned state which is forever in flux.
It means "void of self" and "void of anything pertaining to self", per MN 43 and SN 35.85.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Void is just a Old meaningless word that was given in early translations. To pick up a wifi signal you need the right type of equipment or else its invisible and and wont be picked up or received, when its picked up with the right type of technology, sila, samadhi and pañña then we have access to unlimited Knowledge, unbounded and unconditioned. Just an example......
Void appears to be the core matter; as follows:
in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering. In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

SN 20.7
There is no need to rebel against the Buddha, clutching at self. The following is "voidness":
And how is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered? He has abandoned the conceit of self, has cut it off at the root, removed it from is soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.

MN 22
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
For consideration

Ditthi~ gets translated a view, as some type of opinion, a belief, an idea that we all finally agree on. Ditthi is a natural cognitive organic view of our states of being :shrug: and turn to our attention to our feelings, sensations and perception and so on to grasp the state of our present moment condition and then apply the Buddhas teachings, awakened dharma's dhamma's. When that is aligned properly then it samma Ditthi. One may learn all the teachings but will it change their life, will it have a direct profound effect, many scholars few Buddhas.
The Pali sutta appear to say to abandon the idea of "being" ("bhava") and "our", as follows:
Corporeality is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Feeling is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long bring you welfare and happiness. Perception is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Mental formations are not yours. Give them up! Your giving them up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. Consciousness is not yours. Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness...

MN 22
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
In Sanskrit the word is Drishti, it often get translated as focused gaze from the yogas sutras of Patanajli Muni, this is just one function of Drishti, which is a cognitive factor of mind within the yoga sutras, threads of union. If anyone shows some understanding of Patanjali we can continue to align Drishti to it real meaning and function.
Patanajli's system is very limited and leads only to thoughtlessness. Also, Patanajli taught after the Buddha.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
uriya~Atma Brahman as per Mandukya Upanishad Mantra 7

Nantah-prajnam na bahih-prajnam, nobhayatah-prajnam na prajnana-ghanam na prajnam naprajnam. Adrishtam-avyavaharayam-agrahyam- alakshanam-acintyam-avyapadesyam-ekatma-pratyayasaram, prapancopasarnam santam sivam-advaitam caturtham manyante sa tm sa vijneyah
I doubt many, if anyone, is interested in this Vedic reciting of hymns & hocus pocus.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Atman Brahman is Adrishtam is A means without, without dristi or dhitti realized and understood through prajnam~wisdom
The Pali suttas do not appear to teach the absence of "views". Instead, they appear to teach "Right View".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Upansihads are not time bound and before the translations of the monotheistic imperial materialists there were no dates, as they are not bound by time and space or mundane empirical concepts and ordinary time. Dates were given to them, dates were introduced from foreign sources, dates are not important, some precede Gotama and some came after, maybe some more will come in the future or are already here, a brief understanding of Quantum Physics and some the the language used their could be considered if they get it right maybe close to modern Upanishads. No need for us to limit that which has no limits.
I doubt many, if anyone, is interested in Upanishads. The Pali sutta describe a very straightforward path. The refuge in the Dhamma is the Dhamma is "perfectly spoken". MN 115 says only a fool (puthujjana) would take refuge in another teacher, which includes taking refuge in the Upanishads. Based on the Pali suttas, the impression is the Buddha was a hard-core fundamentalist when it came to his Teachings (Dhamma). This said, the Buddha's fundamentalism only applied with his Community (Sangha). For aliens, outsiders or non-Buddhists, it appears, according to the sutta reports, the Buddha had not intention to impose his Dhamma upon them.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Upa means Near
Ni is Transcendent, often translated as without, but is better understood as transcendent or not bound by conditions.
This may be so but i pointed out previously that many seekers sought "transcendence" or "nibbana" or "liberation" yet their experiences of these things differed; which is why there are different religions; similar to how different religions have different conceptions of "god".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Shad means seat, due to the nature of all Brahma Vidyas or knowledge of the transcendent they are only dealing with consciousness however one defines that, were already way past the skandas and discursive thoughts, ideas, biased beliefs and concepts etc. Shad means seat, original seat of consciousness, so Upanishads means close to the transcendent seat of reality which is always conscious, but how it consciousness we cant define exactly.
Buddha taught consciousness is unsatisfactory (dukkha). The Buddha appeared concerned with complete non-attachment towards consciousness. Where as Hinduism appears to treat unified consciousness is some type of supreme state or god.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
The mantras of the Upanishads are mediums to convey the Absolute
Buddhism is not concerned with the above. The "Supreme" thing in Buddhism is the destruction of greed, hatred & self-delusion, called Nibbana, which literally means "cool" or "without heat" or simply "peace".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
whatever that may be using the highest most refine perception
Buddhism appears not concerned with the above.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Anubhava pratyaksha, perception directly related in bhava
Oh dear. Buddhism appears to the teach the utter destruction of "bhava".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
the preliminary to prem, pure love, unbounded, unconditioned, beyond all ideas and logic and rationality
The above sounds like Samadhi states of mind and not the final goal of Buddhism.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
only prem~ love can fit into this category and can be limited only by greed, hatred and ignorance. This is the vision of the rishi. Rishi Visions were visions of Absolute Prem, and what obscures it and how to rid and remove that which impedes~kleshas.

Again, different religions can share the same goal of purity from defilements but their different paths may bring different and often ineffective results.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
In Vedanta there are two forms of perception pratyaksha, inward or outward perception. If something comes up in connections to other paths I may add somethings and align Vedanta Buddha Dharma.
Never heard of Vedanta Buddha Dharma before. Wiki says: "The word Vedanta literally means the end of the Vedas and originally referred to the Upanishads". The Upanishads are not mentioned in the Pali suttas thus they could have been composed after the Buddha.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Another way to way to understand Shad is Shiva, The Auspicious.
Definitely not. Pali Buddhism has no interest in Shiva.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Upashiva is within the Pali texts and traditions

Again Upa meaning close to and shiva

“As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“goes to rest and can no longer be discerned,
just so the Sage free from the mental body
goes to rest and can no longer be discerned.”

“The one who has come to rest, is he then nothing?” said venerable Upasīva,
“or is he actually eternally healthy?
Please explain this to me, O Sage,
for this Teaching has been understood by you.”

“There is no measure of the one who has come to rest, Upasīva,” said the Gracious One,
“there is nothing by which they can speak of him,
when everything has been completely removed,
all the pathways for speech are also completely removed.”

sutta nipāta 5.7
Lol. Upasīva appears just the name of a person. :)
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
the way to the beyond

middle discourses 140

The Analysis of the Elements

Then it occurred to the Buddha: “This respectable person has gone forth in my name. Why don’t I teach him the Dhamma?” So the Buddha said to Pukkusāti: “Mendicant, I shall teach you the Dhamma. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.” “Yes, revered one,” replied Pukkusāti. The Buddha spoke thus:

‘This person has six elements, six fields of contact, and eighteen mental neighborhoods. They have four foundations, standing on which the streams of conceit don’t flow. And when the streams of conceit don’t flow :thumbsup: , they’re called a sage at peace. ‘Don’t neglect wisdom, preserve truth, foster generosity, and train only for peace.’ This is the recitation passage for the analysis of the elements.

‘This person has six elements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness. ‘This person has six elements.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has six fields of contact.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? The fields of contact of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. ‘This person has six fields of contact.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has eighteen mental neighborhoods.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Seeing a sight with the eye, they linger in the neighborhood of a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. Hearing a sound with the ear … Smelling an odor with the nose … Tasting a flavor with the tongue … Feeling a touch with the body … Becoming conscious of a thought with the mind, they linger in the neighborhood of a thought that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. So there are six neighborhoods near happiness, six neighborhoods near sadness, and six neighborhoods near equanimity. ‘This person has eighteen mental neighborhoods.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘This person has four foundations.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? The foundations of wisdom, truth, generosity, and peace. ‘This person has four foundations.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.

‘Don’t neglect wisdom, preserve truth, foster generosity, and train only for peace.

MN 140 is a supreme sutta! :thumbsup:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Upa and Buddha are like sun and sunrays., sunrays dont light up the sun, they emanate from the sun bringing light, Sun is its own source of power. Surya, Sun is Brahman. Sunraysare Sāriputta (Pali) or Śāriputra (Sanskrit), not these intellectuals that repeat like words without due refining of mind and conditions. Mogallana(pali) is Moon s Mahāmaudgalyāyana(Sanskrit), they are the perfect attendants of Buddha. Lets try an internalize these teachings a little bit.
Lol... Śāriputta means "son of Śāri" (his mother).
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
pukkasati is sitting close to Buddha to finalize his seeking and perfect his sati, sati is srmti remembrance, an awakened remembrance and pukka means perfect.
The Pali suttas report disciples hearing a teaching from Buddha then going off to practise alone in solitute.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
veda is within both buddhist texts and hindu texts
The Vedas are mentioned in the Pali suttas and sort of ridiculed.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
but these texts are not books, not literatures, no doctrines of belief and acceptance with the mundane outward going senses which includes mind. veda is just knowing something as it is, as mind is refined it gets to know things broader and more complete. Its untranslatable and known only through wisdom.
Veda is merely a word or ideal. As I previously posted a number of times, each religion has an ideal to find "wisdom". The Old Testament, for example, talks often about "wisdom". But different sages find different wisdom. All claims to "wisdom" are not the same.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
"As phenomena grow clear to the Brahman--ardent, in jhana--his doubts all vanish when he penetrates the ending of requisite conditions."

Udana 1.2 & 1.3

The above suttas used the term brāhmaṇa. I recall I already advised the Buddha defined the term brāhmaṇa for his own purposes. It does not refer to a Brahman priest. Regardless, the above quote is about phenomena. Such phenomena are natural elements. They are not called "Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, etc". They are called "scientific names", such as earth, water, consciousness, feelings, Peace (NIbbana) etc.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
I listen to ajahn sujato here and there, I like his approach, he is at least willing to go through things a bit more slowly and mindfully. And not just rely on google, fixed translations and his own Bias and lack of insight.
Bhikkhu Sujato actually appears extremely biased. If you understood a little about Pali, you would know this. In fact, his translations are probably the most biased and sectarian around (which is OK. He can choose to be sectarian and translate for his followers).
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
To conclude for now

सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म तज्जलानिति शान्त उपासीत
(sarvam khaluidam brahman tajjalān iti shānta upāsita) –
Whoo... hocus... pocus... clinging to superstitious holy objects. Have you noticed most folks here don't post ancient script as a holy object.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
"All this (collectively) is Brahman
No. The Pali says "sabbe dhamma anatta". "Anatta" is a synonym for "sunnata". All things whatsover are void of self, including Nibbana.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
indeed: what evolves from That, what dissolves in That, what breathes or functions in That, should be closely and calmly studied……." - (Chandogya Upanishad III.14.1)
Is "That" a God or "Brahma"? The Buddha seemed to emphasise "Thus" ("Tathata") rather than "That".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
What cannot be spoken with words, but that whereby words are spoken: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
Buddha was concerned with the cessation of suffering via the destruction of craving & selfing. The above appears unrelated to Buddhism.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
What cannot be thought with the mind, but that whereby the mind can think: Know that alone to be Brahman, the Spirit; and not what people here adore.
Buddha was concerned with the cessation of suffering via the destruction of craving & selfing. The above appears unrelated to Buddhism.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Did anyone ever see there own brain or colour of their eyes by outward going perception.
Buddha was concerned with the cessation of suffering via the destruction of craving & selfing. The above appears unrelated to Buddhism. The above quote is very far away from anything central to Buddhism.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
We cant fit space into a cupThis usually annoys cups
Again, the dimension of infinite space is an arupa jhana and is not Nibbana. The post above is consistent with everything I have said to you about the goals of Hinduism, which are non-thinking; which Gotama rejected.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
After all what has been said, none of it is worth a dime if there is no cultivation of the dharma marga, or dhamma magga, path of Truth.
Based on what you posted, what you suggest to cultivate is not necessarily what the Buddha cultivated. It sounds like a different path. As I posted, most religions talk about a "path" ("magga"). Jesus said: "I am the Path/Way". But these different paths are different; just as the Hindu path is different.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Mind and ordinary intellect and people with invested ideas is simple adharma~without knowing the simple reality of truth.
Yes, your posts are adhamma from a Buddha-Dhamma point of view; even though they might conform to Hindu-Dharma and thus are not adharma from Hindu point of view.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
They just know relative man made facts.
Your ideas appear immersed in self-views about "self vs other self". The Buddha called this a "fetter" of "conceit". I would recommend to simply stick to the facts of the different spiritual paths rather than exalt a personal idea of your self and disparage other selves that ignorance manufacturers. The Buddha taught this in MN 139; namely, to debate doctrines rather than to criticize people (since there are really no "people"). I recommend to learn from the Buddha.
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
I am sure there will be a few flying in with their books in the hand or calling this new age and then flying in with intent to burn people at the stake and drown them and relying on google and other peoples words and poor translations, it is Sunday after all..... :thinking:
Again, I recommend to abandon the above way of thinking. It is manufacturing "self" from mere sense objects. Just stick to the doctines. You posted lots of hocus, pocus, holy sanskrit words, which are very alien to Buddha-Dhamma discourse. I replied what you posted was mere hocus, pocus, superstitious, holy unreality sanskrit words. That is what should be discussed, namely, is the following text सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म तज्जलानिति शान्त उपासीत mere superstitious attachment; what Pali calls "sīlabbata-parāmāsa".
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:01 pm
Brahma-bindu Upanishad
Words strung together in compilations, serve only to
protect and hide knowledge, as husk and chaff the grain ; let
the wise look for the grain and cast away the chaff of words
when that grain of truth has been found.'
In the Pali suttas, it seems the Buddha exhorted the above also to Brahmins, in teachings about consciousness without feature, by ending naming-forms. This is just concentration or samadhi. The goal is not samadhi. Gotama practised samadhi but realised all samadhi states are impermanent. Thus, Gotama used samadhi to examine suffering & its causes for arising. Gotama used samadhi to develop real wisdom. Such wisdom is unrelated to "non-talking" and the "indescribable". Buddha taught 84,000 teachings. Lao Tse, who taught non-thinking or no-words, taught 81 verses. This is the different between a Buddha and a mind stuck in samadhi.
markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:48 am
Cup of tea doodoot
I rarely drink tea but am actually drinking tea right now (since the body is sore from an uncharacteristic work-out).

:anjali:

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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 pm

Its just word play and conceptual thinking doodoot and putting everything in a cup.

i have no real response for you. Some sympathy, but only a degree.

If this was in another forum, not connection to other paths I may continue, but even then it would be difficult because firstly your understanding of Atma and Upanishads and the Pali Language is minus zero, if it was zero there would be some scope to work with.

:namaste:

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DooDoot
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Re: Atman

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:53 pm

markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 pm
Its just word play and conceptual thinking doodoot and putting everything in a cup.
Well... its Markandeya writing the long long lengthy posts with lots of words. At least my mind has the calm clarity patience to read them. :)
markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 pm
i have no real response for you. Some sympathy, but only a degree.
But I posted what the Buddha taught. Please abandon this type of conceit :geek: . It is a defilement. It is a fetter. It is a disease. It is conceit. It is exalting onseself & disparaging another. It is a failure. It is a very bad sin in Buddhism.
One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma.

https://suttacentral.net/mn139/en/nyanamoli
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:47 pm
If this was in another forum, not connection to other paths I may continue, but even then it would be difficult because firstly your understanding of Atma and Upanishads and the Pali Language is minus zero, if it was zero there would be some scope to work with.
No. Atma is Mara (Satan). Upanishads is disconnected, diverese &/or various teachings of different individuals; which a Buddhist of Right View cannot take refuge in (per MN 115). Like finding a needle in a haystack, one may find something of some value after reading many Upanishads. Pali language I have good enough understanding of. Again, I suggest to abandon conceit & self-views. The computer screen is merely void of self; it is merely an element or phenomena; merely a sense object. Try to see how the Buddhas see. :candle: :candle: :candle:
Bound round with delusion, the world
only appears to be competent.
Bound with acquisitions, foolish,
surrounded by darkness,
it seems eternal,
but for one who sees,
there is nothing.

Ud 7.10

markandeya
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Re: Atman

Post by markandeya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:10 pm

To be fair, I can never do as good a job as you are doing to show the one doctrine problem as per monotheistic materialists and fixing that false idea onto something else that can naturally support itself without your influence.

I just hope others have enough developed insight to see it, especially new member's who are easily influenced

Your just trolling and my entry was not aimed at you.

Please excuse me from any further quoting.

Metal cups maintain heat longer.

:namaste:

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