Signs of Kali Yuga

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:27 pm
I admit some of it is poorly translated, but its much better effort than some of the earlier translations.

Can you translate pali or sanskrit, my sanskrit is improving so I would be more interested to compare translations that way.

let me read through the suttas and do some research at sutta central and other sources and see if we can get a clearer picture.
Most of us don't need a clearer picture. As I posted, the Buddha & his monks often deliberately avoided teaching their true dhamma to outsiders (but did teach outsiders alternate teachings). That is why there is so much debate within Buddhism about the teachings because the suttas contain a mixture of teachings for different audiences. There are two types of teachings in Buddhism:

(i) lokiya - worldly/mundane &

(ii) lokuttara - supramundane/beyond the world

Its important to not mix these up. Often the teachings to Brahmans by Buddha are lokiya. In addition, the Buddha often took Brahmin terms, include the word 'Brahmana', and redefined them.

Regards
Well doodoot you have suprised me, we may even start to agree on something :hug:

Its exactly right what you say, well almost apart from the last sentence of redefining braminical terms. I pretty sure this is the work of poor translations and sorry to say something more cinister, like enforcing class system of natural varnashram dharma.

But I wouldn't say deliberately teaching something and alternate teachings to outsiders, they may have given them what they needed to know and not more, as they would be teaching them or guiding them deeper into the dharma from where the stood not as a belief system. But there is definitely two parts to teachings rupa dharma and arupa dharma, there maybe a better way to say it. If one has not had any experience of arupa jhana then certain parts of ones consciousness is not yet developed, so no need to teach anything abstract. Its not a teaching of one size fits all.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:43 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
You seem to have a good brain for study, or maybe your just relying on google and copying pasting to do the thinking for you.
Whilst as a practised Buddhist my mind does not get offended; the above comment is pathetic. It is impossible to know the teaching as DooDoot does by merely copying & pasting.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
But I would suggest that some study in etymology and the original language will help and spending time with people who are fluent in the meaning.
This suggestion is wrong. The language is irrelevant. What is relevant is how language or words are used in context.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
nirvana as I have said is a compound word ni meaning without or transcendent to and varna as conditioned phenomenon.
No. Nibbana is a generic word thus has different meanings for different people & traditions. Gotama searched for Nibbana without even knowing what is truly was for him or what is really was. In short, most of what you have suggested is fatally wrong.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
if you can find me any evidence in pre 10th century India of the suttas and texts being studying as your doing please tell me, because I have found any.
Irrelevant. Buddhism is an experiential tradition. A teaching when practised that ends suffering is a teaching of a Buddha.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:33 pm
the last long quote you gave on dreadlocks and so on is quite laughable, as even though naga sadhu and others ascetics in renounced orders do have dreadlocks there is not actually native word in India for dreadlocks. So that translations is really part of the cultural ignorance and make me even more skeptic.
The Buddha often praised the facial complexion of a person; as a sign of purity & liberation. How can the bright radiant complexion of a saint be observed under beards & dreadlocks? :shrug:

jaṭāhi - mattered hair
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:50 pm

Well we almost made a connection

Never mind

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:51 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:50 pm
Well we almost made a connection
Lol - Buddha disciples are INDEPENDENT (VIVEKA) :meditate: Night clubs are good places to look for sex.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm
Its exactly right what you say, well almost apart from the last sentence of redefining braminical terms.
Many terms were redefined, such as "nama-rupa". If Brahmana had the same meaning; why didn't Buddha just follow the Vedas?
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm
I pretty sure this is the work of poor translations and sorry to say something more cinister, like enforcing class system of natural varnashram dharma.
The Pali is jaṭā, translated as "tangled" hair.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm
But I wouldn't say deliberately teaching something and alternate teachings to outsiders
This practise still exists within Buddhism today. Most Buddhist monks won't even teach Buddhist lay followers the higher teachings because of what is written as the duty of monks in DN 31.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm
But there is definitely two parts to teachings rupa dharma and arupa dharma, there maybe a better way to say it.
The better or right way to say it is as I explained it to you: (i) lokiya dhamma vs (ii) lokuttara dhamma.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:39 pm
If one has not had any experience of arupa jhana then certain parts of ones consciousness is not yet developed, so no need to teach anything abstract. Its not a teaching of one size fits all.
Arupa jhana is not even mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path. Arupa jhana or spacing out like a zombie is what Gotama rejected when rejecting his first two teachers (as reported in MN 26). :mrgreen:

markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:06 pm

Thank you for expaining to me

Uddaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama taught dhyana, it was part of his development but he didnt make a wholesale rejection of them of them as commonly known and accepted by literalists and biased people, he just realized that he needed to develope further on his own without the needs of external teachers, they just pushed him further and there is a limit to it, others cant do it all for them

Viveka

vi insight or inner

veka, Knowledge, not knowledge.

your to literal and biased for me and can only repeat in parrot fashion by the literal words that you read

:reading: :shrug:

should be more

:buddha1:

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:16 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:06 pm
Uddaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama taught dhyana, it was part of his development
No. The suttas report Gotama used the 4th jhana for (wisdom) enlightenment.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:06 pm
but he didnt make a wholesale rejection of them of them as commonly known and accepted by literalists and biased people, he just realized that he needed to develope further on his own without the needs of external teachers, they just pushed him further and there is a limit to it, others cant do it all for them
No. The arupa jhana (while often mentioned in the suttas due to their natural development) are excessive. The Buddha rejected them as a final state of deliverance (even though they are officially considered a lower form of liberation - MN 43).
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:06 pm
your to literal and biased for me
No. I am too accurate & precise for Rebels-Without-A-Cause; who wish to engage in an orgy & quagmire of beguiled interfaith. Been there; done that; which is why I am gravely opposed to your wrong & immature methodology. I was brainwashed by an interfaith guru when I was young and know via experience of its grave & dire consequences. Interfaith is like eating different foods then vomiting them up. In vomit, there is different colors & shapes of different foods.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:06 pm
:buddha1:
No. Please do not post this. The Buddha exhorted complete accuracy & conformity to his Dhamma. The Buddha heavily admonished those that misrepresented his Dhamma; as follows:
To whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Worthless man, you will be recognized for your own pernicious viewpoint. I will cross-question the monks on this matter."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:30 pm

:focus:
markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:24 pm
the yugas have very little to do with linear time, this is bad translations made up by imperial scholars initially to cause division and contempt in society.... Sanskrit on Srimad Bhagavatam or Bhagavad Gita~ Gitopanishad
While the mundane events of the Bhagavad Gita are mere unverified superstition or fairy tales; the parable contained includes the historical reality that people have always engaged in war; which is something the literary character of Krishna promoted. Even somehow the idea that beings were once originally pure crept into Buddhism (DN 20). But, in reality, Buddhism explains ignorance has always existed from the beginning. In other words, I doubt much has ever changed in the world, until recently (with the advent of universal birth control). I think this is the real Kali Yuga; where the structure of families & societies is so broken that all that will happen is 1984 type totalitarian conformity to the Big Brother State Machine. While societies have generally been able to recover from wars due to family bonding, when family bonding is broken, what is left? What do you think of my outook, Markandeya? Do you witness the youth of the world so quickly & easily devoured by Mara; without a Good Shepherd? :|
The danger we're discussing here is amataputtikabhaya. It's so great that not even our parents can rescue us. It's so vast that we can't help our parents either. No one can be of help to anyone else. Normally, this word applies only to the dukkha that arises out of birth, aging, illness, and death, in which children can't help their parents and parents are unable to help their children. This is an enormous and absolute danger. And now there is an external danger of the same magnitude, where parents and children can't help each other, which leaves us completely alone. Close your eyes and think about it. This peril is of the same proportion and meaning as the words "we can't help each other in the matters of birth aging, illness and death". Although we may have parents and children, it's as if we had no one.



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Sam Vara
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:04 pm

Thank you to DooDoot for bringing this back to topic. Please could contributors ensure that it stays about Kali Yuga, and doesn't develop into a general discussion about Buddhism and other Indian systems.

And keep it civil, eh?

Off-topic and ad hominem posts will be removed.

markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:19 pm

Hi Sam

I am not sure why your taking sides, if you read my comments with an unbiased mind you will see how I am trying to make more dharma connections and give right understand of kali yuga as per the traditions that they come from and not from biased and incorrect translations

While at the same time you support the one stereotypical view of Doodoot who I was trying to be civil with, and when you replied to make more divisions and put false information on Bhagavad Gita you seem to think its back on topic. You will hear very few traditional adherents of the Bhagavad Gita explain it that way, and thats the thing that confuses me, your OK with sticking to bad translations and misunderstandings of others cultures but try your best to not only suppress but seem to advocate and support sectarian views. For me its ok, maybe some others that have some some degree of insight who do not post will take more benefit from it, its my wish that you could too.


i guess oil and water truth and ignorance will never mix and its only subjective to state what is true or not from one side or the other.

Doodoot can carry on as much as he like, it hardly makes any difference.


Its very confusing to me

the undertones are quite alarming.

:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:04 pm
Thank you to DooDoot for bringing this back to topic. Please could contributors ensure that it stays about Kali Yuga, and doesn't develop into a general discussion about Buddhism and other Indian systems.

And keep it civil, eh?

Off-topic and ad hominem posts will be removed.
if were disagreeing and if there is some conflict then we are in kali yuga

Why Sam if your so concerned with etiquette and being civil would you allow such false representations of Bhagavad Gita and support sectarian literacy on a samadhi tradition of Gotama. I only said that he is to literal and repeating things in parrot fashion, its true isnt it, its not said with any bad intent and was just my way to back off from his very immature understanding of dharma tradition.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:47 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:04 pm
Thank you to DooDoot for bringing this back to topic. Please could contributors ensure that it stays about Kali Yuga, and doesn't develop into a general discussion about Buddhism and other Indian systems.

And keep it civil, eh?

Off-topic and ad hominem posts will be removed.
if were disagreeing and if there is some conflict then we are in kali yuga

Why Sam if your so concerned with etiquette and being civil would you allow such false representations of Bhagavad Gita and support sectarian literacy on a samadhi tradition of Gotama. I only said that he is to literal and repeating things in parrot fashion, its true isnt it, its not said with any bad intent and was just my way to back off from his very immature understanding of dharma tradition.
My concern is to make sure that discussions do not develop into a rambling free-for-all. If people want to explore connections to other paths, they are very welcome to start new threads.

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Will
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by Will » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm

Although the 'standard' length of the kali yuga time cycle is over 400,000 years, there have been other interpretations. This a long article surveying the many ways and complexities involved in this study. The author Bibhu Dev Misra finally settles on a much shorter cycle of 3000 years, for each of the four yugas, not just Kali. As the chart shows, after 2325 the upward trend will continue, so things will slowly improve!

https://grahamhancock.com/dmisrab6/

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Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

markandeya
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:04 pm

Hi Sam
My concern is to make sure that discussions do not develop into a rambling free-for-all. If people want to explore connections to other paths, they are very welcome to start new threads.
But why are you so supportive of such degenerative views which would give Theravada Buddhist a bad name and cause more division and sectarianism , I have not said one bad word against Theravada as tradition, in fact the opposite, but when doodoot comes out with such condescending and culturally ignorant statements you thank him for bringing the topic back on track. I did try and establish a link with Doodoot but he cant seem to communicate himself other than copy pasting, which seems to show very poor insight.

This is what confuses me

I could quite easily make things clear about Bhagavad Gita but Gita itself says it is useless BG.18.67 because there is no actual point, but as an administrator why do you support ignorance rather than clarity and right understanding and take the wrong sides. I have been following and practicing Theravada for 30 years and since coming here I have not found much of what I have learned through that living tradition here.

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:49 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:04 pm
Hi Sam
My concern is to make sure that discussions do not develop into a rambling free-for-all. If people want to explore connections to other paths, they are very welcome to start new threads.
But why are you so supportive of such degenerative views which would give Theravada Buddhist a bad name and cause more division and sectarianism , I have not said one bad word against Theravada as tradition, in fact the opposite, but when doodoot comes out with such condescending and culturally ignorant statements you thank him for bringing the topic back on track. I did try and establish a link with Doodoot but he cant seem to communicate himself other than copy pasting, which seems to show very poor insight.

This is what confuses me

I could quite easily make things clear about Bhagavad Gita but Gita itself says it is useless BG.18.67 because there is no actual point, but as an administrator why do you support ignorance rather than clarity and right understanding and take the wrong sides. I have been following and practicing Theravada for 30 years and since coming here I have not found much of what I have learned through that living tradition here.

:anjali:
As a moderator (not an administrator, by the way!) my concern is not with views which give Theravada Buddhism a bad name, or with doctrinal purity, cultural ignorance, degenerative views, etc. If I take part in the debate, I might well address such things. But at the moment I am merely concerned with keeping threads on track, and preventing breaches of the ToS. That's why I have asked people here to stick to the title of the thread: "Signs of Kali Yuga"; and to the extent that he has done that, DooDoot is to be commended. If people are abusive or otherwise breach the ToS, then please use the report function.
Talk about Kali Yuga here; talk about any links to any other tradition in a new thread in this section; avoid talking about such links in other sections; and remain polite!

Please don't engage in any more meta-discussion over this.

:anjali:

chownah
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Re: Signs of Kali Yuga

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:34 am

Will wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm
Although the 'standard' length of the kali yuga time cycle is over 400,000 years, there have been other interpretations. This a long article surveying the many ways and complexities involved in this study. The author Bibhu Dev Misra finally settles on a much shorter cycle of 3000 years, for each of the four yugas, not just Kali. As the chart shows, after 2325 the upward trend will continue, so things will slowly improve!
As I mentioned in a previous post I have not seen anything brought here that shows a connection between kali yuga and theravada. Is there one?.....and if so can you describe it?
chownah

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