Dharmas are not authorative

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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auto
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Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:28 pm

http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutraz35.htm

"Noble son, all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of their own defining [external, distinguishing] attributes / characteristics [lakshanas], devoid of the defining attributes [lakshanas]of what is another, devoid of both their own and other defining attributes. They are devoid of the defining attribute of being without cause, devoid of the defining attribute of result, devoid of the defining attribute of being experienced, devoid of the defining attribute of being an agent, devoid of the defining attribute of being an experiencer; devoid of the defining attribute of being an entity/ thing [dharma] and devoid of the defining attribute of not being an entity / thing. They are devoid of the defining attributes of male or female, devoid of the defining attribute of a human being; they are devoid of the defining attribute of an atom, devoid of the defining attribute of time and season..

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egon
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by egon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:55 pm

Please forgive me for being obtuse, but could you please elaborate on this? I'm sure the quoted passage should be self-explanatory but I'm not always too good at reading the suttas.

auto
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:00 pm

"Noble son, the ideation of non-ideation should be known as the true / real ideation."
"Bhagavat, how is the ideation of non-ideation to be known?"
Hmm, nice. What word means, comes from non-ideation. Dharmas are not real because they exist and they are real when they cease to exist.

auto
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:09 pm

ScottPen wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:55 pm
Please forgive me for being obtuse, but could you please elaborate on this? I'm sure the quoted passage should be self-explanatory but I'm not always too good at reading the suttas.
Meaning is dharmata(true nature of reality[wiki..org]]). If you say a word then its meaning is empty and it is real, while the word itself is not empty and that why it is also not real.

You can get from a word infinite amount of meanings.


NB! i don't have light body nor can make my body mean different thing and therefore change its shape, so my understanding is that far(its low).

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Will
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by Will » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:33 pm

auto wrote: so my understanding is that far (its low).
That appears to be true. So perhaps it would be helpful to not post difficult Mahayana sutra passages, when you do not understand them yourself.

Dharma Wheel site has many who can clarify Mahayana passages. Maybe spend more time there first.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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dylanj
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:59 pm

ScottPen wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:55 pm
Please forgive me for being obtuse, but could you please elaborate on this? I'm sure the quoted passage should be self-explanatory but I'm not always too good at reading the suttas.
this is a sūtra not a sutta
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:59 pm

ok what's the connection?

& i don't understand the title of the post, can you explain?
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

auto
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:07 pm

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:59 pm
ok what's the connection?

& i don't understand the title of the post, can you explain?
Mind rests on phenomena, if phenomena cease to exist then you will know what is real.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN5.html
“With regard to that, the individual who, being blemished, doesn’t discern as it has come to be that ‘I have an inner blemish’ is called the inferior man of the two individuals who are blemished. The individual who, being blemished, discerns as it has come to be that ‘I have an inner blemish’ is called the superior man of the two individuals who are blemished.
So if you know what is real, you will take that as your object.
[Ven. Sāriputta:] “With regard to that, my friend, when an individual, being blemished, doesn’t discern that ‘I have an inner blemish,’ it can be expected of him that he will not generate desire, endeavor, or arouse persistence for the abandoning of that blemish. He will die with passion, with aversion, with delusion—blemished & with a mind defiled.
Defiled mind is mind what is not empty, its unreal mind with false knowledge.

---
Are the information you receive from Suttas authoritative if you read them with non-empty mind?

auto
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:42 pm

Will wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:33 pm
auto wrote: so my understanding is that far (its low).
That appears to be true. So perhaps it would be helpful to not post difficult Mahayana sutra passages, when you do not understand them yourself.

Dharma Wheel site has many who can clarify Mahayana passages. Maybe spend more time there first.
just trying to understand what is not understood. I try to understand what i don't understand so i could just understand what i don't understand.
-
Sry but i have not much else to say, i tried my best, i got understanding fly by.

auto
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:04 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:59 pm
ok what's the connection?

& i don't understand the title of the post, can you explain?
i'm interested how much pain you went through to be able to ask me this question?

chownah
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by chownah » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:09 am

auto wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:28 pm
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutraz35.htm

"Noble son, all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of their own defining [external, distinguishing] attributes / characteristics [lakshanas], devoid of the defining attributes [lakshanas]of what is another, devoid of both their own and other defining attributes. They are devoid of the defining attribute of being without cause, devoid of the defining attribute of result, devoid of the defining attribute of being experienced, devoid of the defining attribute of being an agent, devoid of the defining attribute of being an experiencer; devoid of the defining attribute of being an entity/ thing [dharma] and devoid of the defining attribute of not being an entity / thing. They are devoid of the defining attributes of male or female, devoid of the defining attribute of a human being; they are devoid of the defining attribute of an atom, devoid of the defining attribute of time and season..
The theravada equivalent to this is "all dhammas (phenomena) are empty of self".....this is just an elaboration on the ways that one can see that it is empty of self.
chownah
dylanj,
This is the 'connections' thread so presenting a sutra for discussing its connection to theravada is acceptable I think.
chonwah

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dylanj
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Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by dylanj » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:10 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:09 am

dylanj,
This is the 'connections' thread so presenting a sutra for discussing its connection to theravada is acceptable I think.
chonwah
yes i'm not question the validity of the post, just asking if the connection can be pointed out
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

auto
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Dharmas are not authorative

Post by auto » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:27 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:09 am
auto wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:28 pm
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutraz35.htm

"Noble son, all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of their own defining [external, distinguishing] attributes / characteristics [lakshanas], devoid of the defining attributes [lakshanas]of what is another, devoid of both their own and other defining attributes. They are devoid of the defining attribute of being without cause, devoid of the defining attribute of result, devoid of the defining attribute of being experienced, devoid of the defining attribute of being an agent, devoid of the defining attribute of being an experiencer; devoid of the defining attribute of being an entity/ thing [dharma] and devoid of the defining attribute of not being an entity / thing. They are devoid of the defining attributes of male or female, devoid of the defining attribute of a human being; they are devoid of the defining attribute of an atom, devoid of the defining attribute of time and season..
The theravada equivalent to this is "all dhammas (phenomena) are empty of self".....this is just an elaboration on the ways that one can see that it is empty of self.
chownah
dylanj,
This is the 'connections' thread so presenting a sutra for discussing its connection to theravada is acceptable I think.
chonwah
Dhammas are not empty of self, they are devoid of the defining attribute of self. Like dhamma is phenotype and self is genotype. Self is determinant. Because of the dhamma you get to know the self, because there is a self.

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