It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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auto
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It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by auto » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:36 pm

http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutrad.htm
“The Buddha also said to Kasyapa: "Noble Son! It is not appropriate to term suffering as the Noble Truth [of suffering]. Why is that? If one were to term suffering 'the Noble Truth of Suffering', then cattle, sheep, donkeys, horses and the denizens of hell would also have the Noble Truth [of Suffering]. Noble Son! Whoever thinks that the extremely profound [gambhira] domain/ sphere/ realm [visaya] of the Tathagata - the eternal, untransforming Dharmakaya [Body of Truth] - is a body nourished by food, such a person does not know of the virtues and power which the Tathagata possesses. This [i.e. such ignorance of the true nature of the Buddha] is 'suffering'. Why so? Due to ignorance. A person views Dharma as non-Dharma, and non-Dharma as Dharma. Know that this person will fall into the unfortunate realms and repeat birth and death. This will increase the bonds of illusion and worry will grow. If he comes to know that the Tathagata is Eternal, one with whom there comes about no change, or if he hears the word "eternal", he will obtain birth in heaven. And on gaining emancipation, he will actually see that the Tathagata is Eternal and Unchanging. When this is well seen, he will say: "I heard about this in the past. Now that I am emancipated, I know this. As I was ignorant regarding the Ultimate, I have been repeating birth and death to no end. Today, I am enlightened as regards true knowledge." If knowledge reaches this stage, this is truly practising suffering. There is much to profit from. One may well practise this, but if one does not know things to be thus, no profit will result. This is what is called knowing suffering. This is the noble truth of suffering. If one does not practise thus, this is suffering and not the noble truth of suffering.

So it seem it is wrong to practice noting sensations and tag them no-self, suffering, impermanence.

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TamHanhHi
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by TamHanhHi » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:50 pm

Suffering and the Noble Truth of Suffering were never the same thing. The Noble Truth of suffering is the comprehension of suffering; it's when you see and understand the truth of suffering.

Also that text is very dubious, so careful drawing conclusions from it.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38 :candle: | Blog at http://dhammareflections.wordpress.com

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Will
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Post by Will » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:54 pm

The Nirvana Sutra is a Tathagatagarbha sutra. Like all those ten or so sutras it emphasizes the positive nature of nirvana. Much of Mahayana negatively emphasizes the disappearance of suffering as nirvana.

Just as this sutta quote has both positive & negative descriptors for Nibbana - I put the positive (to me) English terms in bold:
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End, the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle, the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified, Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety, the Wonderful, the Marvellous, Nibbana, Purity, Freedom, the Island, the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:23 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:36 pm
So it seem it is wrong to practice noting sensations and tag them no-self, suffering, impermanence.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that sutra is not what the Buddha taught. If you follow the link and read just the introduction you'll see all sorts of non-Buddhist stuff, created long after the Buddha passed away.
On the wikipedia page it says that was written more than 600 years after the Buddha, in Southern India.

auto
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by auto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:24 am

I'm looking for the meaning not the words, so it can be written by anyone, if it speaks of the deep meaning i won't reject it.

Other thing what this Sutra says is that noone is going to force this deep knowledge since its too deep to understand and if not understood it doesn't bring any benefit, so keep on learning what you can fathom.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:43 am

The issue is it's not canon so it's essentially the fanfiction of the Buddha's teachings. :stirthepot:

But seriously you can take whatever nonsense words and put them together, and the Buddha's teachings are still going to be the teachings of how to recognize dukkha, it's origin, it's cessation, and the path. Anything else is just anti-Buddhist.

Denial of the Four Noble Truths and the three characteristics of experience is folly.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by auto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:05 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:43 am
The issue is it's not canon so it's essentially the fanfiction of the Buddha's teachings. :stirthepot:

But seriously you can take whatever nonsense words and put them together, and the Buddha's teachings are still going to be the teachings of how to recognize dukkha, it's origin, it's cessation, and the path. Anything else is just anti-Buddhist.

Denial of the Four Noble Truths and the three characteristics of experience is folly.
It doesn't deny 4NT. It says that you will know suffering when you are free from suffering and then when you know suffering then you are practicing it and then your knowing about suffering increases.

The suffering what you get from illness while you are being ill, it is too late, next thing you go to hell.

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dylanj
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by dylanj » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 am

auto wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:36 pm
So it seem it is wrong to practice noting sensations and tag them no-self, suffering, impermanence.
...if we accept this teaching as authoritative. I know this is the "connections to other paths" subforum but I think determining whether or not there is in fact a connection is an integral part of the discussion here. & I think there is not one, there's no connection, this teaching is directly opposed to the theravāda teachings.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

auto
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by auto » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:44 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 am
auto wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:36 pm
So it seem it is wrong to practice noting sensations and tag them no-self, suffering, impermanence.
...if we accept this teaching as authoritative. I know this is the "connections to other paths" subforum but I think determining whether or not there is in fact a connection is an integral part of the discussion here. & I think there is not one, there's no connection, this teaching is directly opposed to the theravāda teachings.
It has Sutta included, it doesn't reject anything. Like kids stop play with toys when they grow up, real cars are the toys now. You won't name a thing impermanent if it can drive over you or have any other mastery over you what you need obey.

Why in your opinion precepts are for or sila?

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Will
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Re: It is not appropriate to term suffering as Noble truth of suffering

Post by Will » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:36 pm

Being of a Mahayana persuasion myself, let me point out a couple of things:

1) The Mahaparinirvana Sutra is very long, so one can find sections supporting the standard, basic anātman view also.
2) The basic, vast majority view in Mahayana is anātman, just like Theravada.
3) In Mahayana the notion of Buddha presenting many differing paths of practice, for people with varying characters is accepted.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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