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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:38 am
by pilgrim
I would say no. Disliking an idea is not the same as disliking a person . I may disagree with the whole idea of Pure Land practice but I recognise that some who practise it may achieve remarkable samadhi as a result of that practice even if that was not their original intention.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:42 am
by mikenz66
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 am
Saengnapha wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:49 am I am neither arguing for or against Zen practice. However, if they are indeed trying to become Buddhas, isn't a Buddha an Ariya? Since your knowledge of Zen practice is limited, why comment on things you don't know about?
I am just asking if there is a reason to believe that the 8FNP is at all realized in those traditions.
That's a completely different question from the OP! Since you seem to have no idea about those traditions, I don't see how you can actually insult anyone. You'd have to first at least identify someone before you could even begin to insult them.

:heart:
Mike

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am
by rightviewftw
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:42 am
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 am I am just asking if there is a reason to believe that the 8FNP is at all realized in those traditions.
That's a completely different question from the OP! Since you seem to have no idea about those traditions, I don't see how you can actually insult anyone. You'd have to first at least identify someone before you could even begin to insult them.

:heart:
Mike
pilgrim wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:38 am I would say no. Disliking an idea is not the same as disliking a person . I may disagree with the whole idea of Pure Land practice but I recognise that some who practise it may achieve remarkable samadhi as a result of that practice even if that was not their original intention.
That is interesting, so if someone said:
Theravadins have no ascetism, they have no jhana or liberation or path or fruition, etc.
You do not think that this would beget the offense of Ariyupavadantaraya?
“Revilers of Noble Ones”: being desirous of harm for Noble Ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.

Herein, it should be understood that when they say, “They have no
asceticism, they are not ascetics,” they revile them with the worst accusation;
and when they say, “They have no jhāna or liberation or path of fruition, etc.,” they revile them with denial of their special qualities. And whether done knowingly or unknowingly it is in either case reviling of Noble Ones; it is weighty kamma resembling that of immediate result, and it is an obstacle both to heaven and to the path. But it is remediable.
I quote Dhammanando here as he said that it is not necessarily against a person;
Dhammanando wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:52 pm
zan wrote:2.) What is "insulting a noble one" exactly?
Either professing that ariyans don't exist ("There are no good and virtuous samaṇas and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world") or else denying the ariyan qualities of a particular person...

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:09 am
by mikenz66
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am I quote Dhammanando here as he said that it is not necessarily against a person;
Either professing that ariyans don't exist ("There are no good and virtuous samaṇas and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world") or else denying the ariyan qualities of a particular person.
That doesn't seem to include the case of making sweeping statements about people and traditions that you know very little about (not even their names) though there are other reasons for not doing that...

:heart:
Mike

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:16 am
by pilgrim
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am
That is interesting, so if someone said:
Theravadins have no ascetism, they have no jhana or liberation or path or fruition, etc.
You do not think that this would beget the offense of Ariyupavadantaraya?
“Revilers of Noble Ones”: being desirous of harm for Noble Ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.
This is ambigous. Given that there are a few million Theravadins, it is hard to imagine he is directing his criticism at them individually but at the practice of Theravadins. It is not personal. However, if he points out a group and say "These Theravadins have no ascetism", then it is personal and it is Ariyupavadantaraya.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:16 am
by Saengnapha
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:42 am
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 am
Saengnapha wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:49 am I am neither arguing for or against Zen practice. However, if they are indeed trying to become Buddhas, isn't a Buddha an Ariya? Since your knowledge of Zen practice is limited, why comment on things you don't know about?
I am just asking if there is a reason to believe that the 8FNP is at all realized in those traditions.
That's a completely different question from the OP! Since you seem to have no idea about those traditions, I don't see how you can actually insult anyone. You'd have to first at least identify someone before you could even begin to insult them.

:heart:
Mike
You are thinking way too much.
Sorry, I think you were addressing your reply to mr. wrongview

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:25 am
by rightviewftw
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:09 am
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am I quote Dhammanando here as he said that it is not necessarily against a person;
Either professing that ariyans don't exist ("There are no good and virtuous samaṇas and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world") or else denying the ariyan qualities of a particular person.
That doesn't seem to include the case of making sweeping statements about people and traditions that you know very little about (not even their names) though there are other reasons for not doing that...

:heart:
Mike
It seems to me that saying "there are no contemplatives in the world" is at least somewhat similar to saying "there are no contemplatives in a particular tradition" or "there are no contemplatives in a particular country" or "... this particular monastery"
Dhp chp 18
No contemplatives exist outside the Buddha's path
Therefore i think the question is whether or not the path is found outside of the Theravada traditions. Because if the path is not found then it is impossible to incur the offence.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:31 am
by rightviewftw
pilgrim wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:16 am
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am
That is interesting, so if someone said:
Theravadins have no ascetism, they have no jhana or liberation or path or fruition, etc.
You do not think that this would beget the offense of Ariyupavadantaraya?
“Revilers of Noble Ones”: being desirous of harm for Noble Ones consisting of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and disciples, and also of householders who are stream-enterers, they revile them with the worst accusations or with denial of their special qualities; they abuse and upbraid them, is what is meant.
This is ambigous. Given that there are a few million Theravadins, it is hard to imagine he is directing his criticism at them individually but at the practice of Theravadins. It is not personal. However, if he points out a group and say "These Theravadins have no ascetism", then it is personal and it is Ariyupavadantaraya.
What if he was criticizing all of theravadins, saying ie "theravadins [taken as a group] do not have the path, their teachings are wrong" then he would be incurring the offence in your opinion?

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:10 am
by StormBorn
It may not be an ariyupavada, but deep calm states are also higher human states (forgot the Pali word). So if someone criticised or looked down on a yogi and his deeply calmed mind, wouldn't it be a very bad karma too? I think, when come to karma, the tradition is non-essential, but the actual mind qualities do.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:50 am
by Ruud
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:25 am Therefore i think the question is whether or not the path is found outside of the Theravada traditions.
And unless you walk the specific path, you can’t know whether it is found there. Let alone making a judgement about it without knowing anything about it.

rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:25 am Because if the path is not found then it is impossible to incur the offence.
Which does not mean that because you are not talking to a Noble One, you have to put right speech and action aside, no matter to whom you are talking, buddhist or not.

I think it simply comes down to:
- We should avoid reviling a Noble One
- We do not know who is a Noble one
= We should avoid reviling anyone

And disagreeing with someone’s opinion/view is not reviling, as long as you present your view as your view (MN95) and present it with right speech

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:11 am
by Grigoris
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 amThat is interesting, so if someone said:
Theravadins have no ascetism, they have no jhana or liberation or path or fruition, etc.
You do not think that this would beget the offense of Ariyupavadantaraya?
Of course it would be.

And, yes, Mahayana practitioners have insight into the Eightfold Noble Path :roll: , why wouldn't they? They are Buddhists after all.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:18 am
by Pseudobabble
Why worry about it? There will be people who get it among the Mahayana, just like there are people who don't get it among the Theravada. The label a person applies to themself has almost nothing at all to do with whether they are 'ariya'.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:52 pm
by rightviewftw
Pseudobabble wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:18 am Why worry about it? There will be people who get it among the Mahayana, just like there are people who don't get it among the Theravada. The label a person applies to themself has almost nothing at all to do with whether they are 'ariya'.
I think that whether one believes in the possibility of a realm populated by deceased Buddhas or doesn't matters for the prospect of attaining path and fruition.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:15 pm
by Grigoris
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:52 pmI think that whether one believes in the possibility of a realm populated by deceased Buddhas or doesn't matters for the prospect of attaining path and fruition.
This is a complete misunderstanding of what the Dharmakaya is.

Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:24 pm
by rightviewftw
Grigoris wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:15 pm
rightviewftw wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:52 pmI think that whether one believes in the possibility of a realm populated by deceased Buddhas or doesn't matters for the prospect of attaining path and fruition.
This is a complete misunderstanding of what the Dharmakaya is.
wow you are so helpful thank you very much