Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pilgrim
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by pilgrim » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:18 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:11 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:49 am
That is interesting, so if someone said:
Theravadins have no ascetism, they have no jhana or liberation or path or fruition, etc.
You do not think that this would beget the offense of Ariyupavadantaraya?
Of course it would be.

And, yes, Mahayana practitioners have insight into the Eightfold Noble Path :roll: , why wouldn't they? They are Buddhists after all.
Mahayana is a very general term encompassing a great range and diversity of Groups from old traditions like Pureland to more recent ones like Nichiren to new religious movements like Guan Yin Citta. Some just give a mention to the Noble Eightfold Path.

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Aloka
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Aloka » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:29 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:06 am
Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:31 am
The smart Mahayana practicioners I know have given up this practice and instead refer to Theravada as Southern Buddhism now.
Personally, I just call it Theravada.
Yes, I don't know of any Mahayana/Vajrayana practioners who refer to Theravada as "Southern Buddhism". Maybe its different in the USA.

.

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by befriend » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:57 pm

Zen practice allows you to let go of defilements cultivate huuuuuge amounts of sincere compassion and leads to insights I did some shikantaza last night and had an insight into the nature of thought which was thoughts are just nothing but conventional signs pointing to reality they are not realities. But it wasn't a thought it was a intuitive experience of this. Zen is awareness of everything and builds joy and compassion so if you have disparaged reviled an entire Buddhist tradition based off of ignorance it's best to apologize to whomever you spoke I'll of.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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budo
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:04 pm

befriend wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:57 pm
Zen practice allows you to let go of defilements cultivate huuuuuge amounts of sincere compassion and leads to insights I did some shikantaza last night and had an insight into the nature of thought which was thoughts are just nothing but conventional signs pointing to reality they are not realities. But it wasn't a thought it was a intuitive experience of this. Zen is awareness of everything and builds joy and compassion so if you have disparaged reviled an entire Buddhist tradition based off of ignorance it's best to apologize to whomever you spoke I'll of.
How does Zen exactly work? You sit down and then what? Follow an object and ignore everything else, or follow whatever object is strongest, or what?

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by befriend » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:25 pm

The mindfulness generated from zen cleared up my mind and I have less negative thoughts today from last night. So shikantaza is when you sit with correct posture, breathe from the belly, open your eyes, have a soft gaze at a 45 degree angle downwards and let thoughts pass. It's nothing more than being in a state of naturalness. When your posture is good upright and relaxed and you let thoughts pass awareness of different objects comes to you you are abiding in reality you become reality and awareness is there. As a natural function of the mind is to be aware when one sits naturally awareness arises with awareness compassion arises human nature is compassionate at its heart so that emerges. A lot of joy arises and contentment because your awareness is effortless the only effort there is is to come back to correct posture which is a natural form. You become aware of everything cars, birds sensations breathing movements thoughts. It's enjoyable and the more you sit your conciousness acclamaites to awareness.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:49 pm

budo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:15 am

You misread me, I said the Buddha stopped looking further than 100,000 past lives, not years

I did not misread you but you did misread me, nowhere did I mention a hundred thousand years. What I said was that the pericope on past lives does not stop at 100,000 lives but goes on to mention many aeons of cosmic evolution and devolution. You said that the Buddha’s concept of time was tiny compared to even our concept of the observable universe being 13 billion years old. I showed that you were wrong. Go back and read my post and you’ll see what I mean.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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budo
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by budo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:25 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:49 pm
budo wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:15 am

You misread me, I said the Buddha stopped looking further than 100,000 past lives, not years

What I said was that the pericope on past lives does not stop at 100,000 lives but goes on to mention many aeons of cosmic evolution and devolution.
Lives != Time

Aeons = Time

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:23 am

Just for information, the following are root downfalls of the Mahayana bodhisattva vow:
To repudiate any of the three vehicles or to lead someone into the belief that they do not constitute the path to liberation.

By injudicious praise of the Mahayana, to lead people of a Hinayana disposition to give up their pratimoksha vows.

To maintain that following the Hinayana path does not eradicate defilements or that the shravakas do not have an authentic path to liberation. source
So, to repudiate the Theravada would be a root downfall of the bodhisattva vow.

Also, Mahayana Buddhists study the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. His Holiness the Dalai Lama teaches this and has even written a book on the Four Noble Truths.

DS
"Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,"

~ From the Karaniya Metta Sutta (Sn 1.8)

LuisR
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by LuisR » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:34 am

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:23 am


Also, Mahayana Buddhists study the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. His Holiness the Dalai Lama teaches this and has even written a book on the Four Noble Truths.

DS
What scripture does Mahayana get the teaching on the four noble truths and the eightfold path from?

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:45 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 am
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions such as Zen or Mahayana result in Ariyupavadantaraya*?
My reading of the Pali finds the Buddha emphasised the destruction of craving & anatta yet often Zen & Mahayana emphasise non-thinking, non-conceptualization, etc. In fact, I notice posters on this forum picking & choosing Pali text to emphasize Zen & Mahayana emphasis on non-thinking, cessation of perception & feeling, consciousness without feature, etc. Therefore, even within Theravada, there is the possibly of Ariyupavadantaraya when the Noble teachings of non-craving, non-attachment & not-self are ignored for an emphasis upon non-thinking and other concentration states.

markandeya
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by markandeya » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am

Hi,




Since a few hundred years ago certain sectarian understanding did not exist, this does not mean that there were no competing schools, which may have to do more with mans weakness for power rather then the pure buddha dharma, which transcends all sectarianism and even the idea of Buddhism. So one should be mindful to talk bad about any other dharma tradition with careful consideration and correct teachings, in ancient Indian Dharma was a key word in the fabric of life. Most people read to much into biased translations and some sectarian superiority, also how the stages of the path are compared to each other, everyone wants to be at top, practicing the best thing, the most highest dharma, its just mental ideas, nothings, ego based concepts, basics are foundations of success.


To keep to the dharma side of things hina means smaller or lesser and Maha means great. This was a focus on either ones individual enlightenment or to work for the enlightenment of others. This is all pretty basic knowledge, most people know this. But they may not see Mahayana in the Thervada tradition as obvious as it is in the Mahayana Traditions.

Hina is our practice of cultivating the early stages of enlightenment. They will be specific to the person practice, in Theravada they will have their ways, cultivation of the 4 jhanas, in Zen schools they have variety of Practice and so to in Tibetan and Vrajayana. All Buddhist traditions will include the same system of hina and mahayana, but the practice and culture may vary.

When the individual practitioner hit a certain stage in his hina or individual purification of his own vessel had beared fruit of his practice he would get direct experience and insight into to the Mahayana or seeing reality outside of his limited condition. This is what is usually termed as southern or northern, or gradual and sudden.

All dharma traditions have a concept of gradual and sudden, or individual and selfless dharma. To understand Dharma the dharma eye needs to be opened, it cannot not happen before this, no matter how many teachings you gain or how many books you read.

:anjali:

auto
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:18 am

befriend wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:25 pm
The mindfulness generated from zen cleared up my mind and I have less negative thoughts today from last night. So shikantaza is when you sit with correct posture, breathe from the belly, open your eyes, have a soft gaze at a 45 degree angle downwards and let thoughts pass. It's nothing more than being in a state of naturalness. When your posture is good upright and relaxed and you let thoughts pass awareness of different objects comes to you you are abiding in reality you become reality and awareness is there. As a natural function of the mind is to be aware when one sits naturally awareness arises with awareness compassion arises human nature is compassionate at its heart so that emerges. A lot of joy arises and contentment because your awareness is effortless the only effort there is is to come back to correct posture which is a natural form. You become aware of everything cars, birds sensations breathing movements thoughts. It's enjoyable and the more you sit your conciousness acclamaites to awareness.
the compassion what arises is probably 1st jhana. Stilling the mind would be 2nd jhana factor, where you are aware, conscious of birds and cars. Rapture at some point disapears and i want to see how you get over that.

auto
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by auto » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:40 am

markandeya wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:32 am
Hi,




Since a few hundred years ago certain sectarian understanding did not exist, this does not mean that there were no competing schools, which may have to do more with mans weakness for power rather then the pure buddha dharma, which transcends all sectarianism and even the idea of Buddhism. So one should be mindful to talk bad about any other dharma tradition with careful consideration and correct teachings, in ancient Indian Dharma was a key word in the fabric of life. Most people read to much into biased translations and some sectarian superiority, also how the stages of the path are compared to each other, everyone wants to be at top, practicing the best thing, the most highest dharma, its just mental ideas, nothings, ego based concepts, basics are foundations of success.


To keep to the dharma side of things hina means smaller or lesser and Maha means great. This was a focus on either ones individual enlightenment or to work for the enlightenment of others. This is all pretty basic knowledge, most people know this. But they may not see Mahayana in the Thervada tradition as obvious as it is in the Mahayana Traditions.

Hina is our practice of cultivating the early stages of enlightenment. They will be specific to the person practice, in Theravada they will have their ways, cultivation of the 4 jhanas, in Zen schools they have variety of Practice and so to in Tibetan and Vrajayana. All Buddhist traditions will include the same system of hina and mahayana, but the practice and culture may vary.

When the individual practitioner hit a certain stage in his hina or individual purification of his own vessel had beared fruit of his practice he would get direct experience and insight into to the Mahayana or seeing reality outside of his limited condition. This is what is usually termed as southern or northern, or gradual and sudden.

All dharma traditions have a concept of gradual and sudden, or individual and selfless dharma. To understand Dharma the dharma eye needs to be opened, it cannot not happen before this, no matter how many teachings you gain or how many books you read.

:anjali:
Body is ridden with sicknesses. These are hidden, when you make progress it will cause these surface and flourish. When no fast progress then practice is easy and fun.
Food tampers sensations and without these we would die off. We do backfireing but can't give it up either all at once, it is a gradual process and everyone does what works.

cookiemonster
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by cookiemonster » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:00 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 am
A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and texts, as titled:
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions such as Zen or Mahayana result in Ariyupavadantaraya*?

*offense of reviling a Noble person
IMO, no.

Dismissal of a path does not equal dismissal of a person.

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:10 am

LuisR wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:34 am
Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:23 am


Also, Mahayana Buddhists study the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. His Holiness the Dalai Lama teaches this and has even written a book on the Four Noble Truths.

DS
What scripture does Mahayana get the teaching on the four noble truths and the eightfold path from?
Someone more knowledgeable could give you a more precise answer as I must rely on commentaries since I neither read Chinese or Tibetan and the entire Tripitaka has not been translated into English.

The Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra discusses the Four Noble Truths
The Mahācattārīsaka Sutra, which is in both the Pali and Chinese cannons, discusses the Noble Eightfold Path. There are probably others.

DS
"Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,"

~ From the Karaniya Metta Sutta (Sn 1.8)

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