Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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rightviewftw
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Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 am

A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and texts, as titled:
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions such as Zen or Mahayana result in Ariyupavadantaraya*?

*offense of reviling a Noble person
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:05 am

I would say Yes. If you completely dismiss Zen and Mahayana etc, you're essentially saying that all their Enlightened Masters' claims of awakening are false.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:05 am
I would say Yes. If you completely dismiss Zen and Mahayana etc, you're essentially saying that all their Enlightened Masters' claims of awakening are false.
What makes you think that they are not false? Anything in particular?
I have not actually studied much of it but from what little i did learn it seemed like nobody would be developing the 8FNP there, Mahayana in particular. I know even less about Zen.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am
What makes you think that they are not false? Anything in particular?
If you read the teachings of some Zen or Mahayana masters, it's quite clear some of them know what they're talking about, regarding recognition of anicca, anatta, dukkha, the opening of their dhamma-eye, the dissappearance of self, stream entry, etc. All told in their Zen and Mahayana way of explaining the same things as Theravada... so it sounds a bit different.

Also, it's probably best to not judge another branch of Buddhism unless you've studied or lived it yourself.

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:42 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:36 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am
What makes you think that they are not false? Anything in particular?
If you read the teachings of some Zen or Mahayana masters, it's quite clear some of them know what they're talking about, regarding recognition of anicca, anatta, dukkha, the opening of their dhamma-eye, the dissappearance of self, stream entry, etc. All told in their Zen and Mahayana way of explaining the same things as Theravada... so it sounds a bit different.

Also, it's probably best to not judge another branch of Buddhism unless you've studied or lived it yourself.
Interesting, could you refer to some of these teachers and teachings? Would it be incomperhensible without a background in their terminology?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:48 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:42 am
Interesting, could you refer to some of these teachers and teachings? Would it be incomperhensible without a background in their terminology?
Sorry, it was more than a decade ago I was doing my Zen reading, too long ago for any names to have stuck in my brain.
I do remember that it was not incomprehensible, the language and wording was different but you could easily understand they were referring to the same experiences and internal changes.

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:59 am

Perhaps the best course of action is to make apologies just in case then :thinking:
I hate worrying about that offence :(
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:38 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am
I have not actually studied much of it but from what little i did learn it seemed like nobody would be developing the 8FNP there, Mahayana in particular. I know even less about Zen.
I don't understand your statements, since Chan/Zen/Seon are Mahayana schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism

Besides, if you know little about these other schools, then I'm puzzled why you think you have a problem. If you don't actually know who these people are, details of how they practice, what they teach, and so on, it would hardly be practical to revile them, would it?

:heart:
Mike

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:38 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am
I have not actually studied much of it but from what little i did learn it seemed like nobody would be developing the 8FNP there, Mahayana in particular. I know even less about Zen.
I don't understand your statements, since Chan/Zen/Seon are Mahayana schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism

Besides, if you know little about these other schools, then I'm puzzled why you think you have a problem. If you don't actually know who these people are, details of how they practice, what they teach, and so on, it would hardly be practical to revile them, would it?

:heart:
Mike
Not much to understand i did not even know that Zen was Mahayana.
Almost all i know can be summed up as "they" do not practice to become Ariya in this life but rather trying to become Buddhas and that they think that Buddhas go to a special realm after the breakup of the body, a realm populated by Buddhas.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:38 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 am
I have not actually studied much of it but from what little i did learn it seemed like nobody would be developing the 8FNP there, Mahayana in particular. I know even less about Zen.
I don't understand your statements, since Chan/Zen/Seon are Mahayana schools: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism

Besides, if you know little about these other schools, then I'm puzzled why you think you have a problem. If you don't actually know who these people are, details of how they practice, what they teach, and so on, it would hardly be practical to revile them, would it?

:heart:
Mike
Not much to understand i did not even know that Zen was Mahayana.
Almost all i know can be summed up as "they" do not practice to become Ariya in this life but rather trying to become Buddhas and that they think that a Buddhas go to a special realm after the breakup of the body, a realm populated by Buddhas.
I am neither arguing for or against Zen practice. However, if they are indeed trying to become Buddhas, isn't a Buddha an Ariya? Since your knowledge of Zen practice is limited, why comment on things you don't know about?

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:49 am
I am neither arguing for or against Zen practice. However, if they are indeed trying to become Buddhas, isn't a Buddha an Ariya? Since your knowledge of Zen practice is limited, why comment on things you don't know about?
I am just asking if there is a reason to believe that the 8FNP is at all realized in those traditions.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by StormBorn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:57 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 am
A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and texts, as titled:
Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions such as Zen or Mahayana result in Ariyupavadantaraya*?

*offense of reviling a Noble person
Famous Chan Buddhist master Xu Yun, aka. Empty Cloud was well known for his ability for absorption. And it's possible for such a calm mind to give rise to insights.
For the next several days, Xuyun sat in continuous meditation. In his autobiography, he wrote: "[in] the purity of my singleness of mind, I forgot all about my body. Twenty days later my illness vanished completely. From that moment, with all my thoughts entirely wiped out, my practice took effect throughout the day and night. My steps were as swift as if I was flying in the air. One evening, after meditation, I opened my eyes and suddenly saw I was in brightness similar to broad daylight in which I could see everything inside and outside the monastery..." But he knew that this occurrence was only a mental state, and that it was not at all rare. He did not become attached to this achievement, but continued his single-minded investigation of the topic, "who is mindful of the Buddha?" over and over again, he delved into this topic without interruption.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:17 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:56 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:49 am
I am neither arguing for or against Zen practice. However, if they are indeed trying to become Buddhas, isn't a Buddha an Ariya? Since your knowledge of Zen practice is limited, why comment on things you don't know about?
I am just asking if there is a reason to believe that the 8FNP is at all realized in those traditions.
Investigate it for yourself. Why take my word for it?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:23 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:17 am
Investigate it for yourself. Why take my word for it?
As i wrote in the OP;
A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and text
I probably would not take your word for it but if you could substatiate your opinions it could definitely sway my opinion. This thread is me investigating it but i prefer to outsource this particular task.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Saengnapha
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Re: Can a wholesale dismissal of Non-Theravada traditions result in Ariyupavadantaraya

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:28 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:23 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:17 am
Investigate it for yourself. Why take my word for it?
As i wrote in the OP;
A question for those well-familiar with non-Theravada traditions and text
I probably would not take your word for it but if you could substatiate your opinions it could definitely sway my opinion. This thread is me investigating it but i prefer to outsource this particular task.
Sorry, swaying your opinion is not my objective.

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