Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:20 am

that certain texts preserved in Sanskrit ( commentary or otherwise) might help people to understand the deeper meaning/implication of those teachings.
I wonder what it is.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bundokji
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Bundokji » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:37 am

I think this is common to all religions, not only Buddhism. All sects that emerge later in time will have to refer to the original teachings in a way or another to justify the newer teachings, the opposite is not true.

We can sympathize with that without agreeing with it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Grigoris
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:31 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 am
No Arahants in Mahayana.
And you know this how, exactly???
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 am

And you know this how, exactly???
Please correct me if I am wrong.
My understanding is all Mahayana practitioners aim for Buddhahood which you can't attain in this life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Grigoris
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:05 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 am
Please correct me if I am wrong.
My understanding is all Mahayana practitioners aim for Buddhahood which you can't attain in this life.
Yes, one does aim for Buddhahood.

In the Mahayana Arhathood is considered the Eighth Bhumi on the Bodhisattva path and Buddhahood is considered attainable in this lifetime.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:10 am

Buddhahood is considered attainable in this lifetime.
Which means there could be more than one Buddha at a time.
When Mahayana had last Buddha?
Is HHDL a Buddha?
If not which Bhumi he is in according to your opinion?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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pitakele
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by pitakele » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:19 am

I have a great deal of respect for the Dalai Lama as a spiritual teacher and inspiration for millions throughout the world. Despite his extensive public duties, he is known to spend many hours each day in devotional and meditational practices.

Regarding this topic, I have heard him say that Pali texts are primary for Vinaya and Sanskrit sutras are primary for Dharma. It is possible that he has never studied the Pali suttas (esp. if there are no translations into Tibetan).

Anyway, I would refute the Dalai Lama's statement in this video that the third noble truth, which he describes as cessation-suññatā, can only be understood properly according to the Sanskrit sutras. To my understanding, the only one who fully realizes suññatā is the Non Becomer* (Arahat). The path to Arahatta is fully expounded in the Pali suttas. Buddha has defined voidness as void of lobha, dosa & moha. As long as there is craving for existence, there is an 'I'. The Non Becomer is vītatanhā and does not perceive an 'I' whatsoever, not in any place, not in the past, not in the present, and not in the future.

I have heard the Dalai Lama teach Bodhicitta vows which emphasis suññatā. I understand how this practice can cultivate selflessness (altruism) to a high degree, but not how it could lead to realization of voidness of the aggregates. Some Tibetan texts teach that the Bodhisattva's 'suññatā' is the supreme suññatā, but logically, I don't see how this can be possible in a mind still fueled by craving for existence...

* not a fan of commentarial writings, but I like Buddhaghosa's etymology here - spokes (ara) of becoming cut off/destroyed (hata)
now here = nowhere

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Aloka
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Aloka » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:10 am
Buddhahood is considered attainable in this lifetime.
Which means there could be more than one Buddha at a time.
When Mahayana had last Buddha?
Is HHDL a Buddha?
If not which Bhumi he is in according to your opinion?

What odd questions, SarathW.

Genuine Mahayana/Vajrayana teachers don't go around declaring that they're Buddhas or on one of the Bodhisattva levels!

That's the domain of loonies who say they're enlightened on YouTube, or join internet groups and declare their own perceived "level" or "enlightenment" to the other members.

:)
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:21 am

Eighth Bhumi on the Bodhisattva path
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 am

Genuine Mahayana/Vajrayana teachers don't go around declaring that they're Buddhas or on one of the Bodhisattva levels!
Agree.
Even though I am not an Arahant I can reasonably guess if someone is not.
I will very confidently say HHDL is not in third Bhumi.
======
"Their equanimity becomes so profound that

even if someone...cuts from the body of this bodhisattva not just flesh but also bone, not in large sections but bit by bit, not continually but pausing in between, and not finishing in a short time but cutting over a long period, the bodhisattva would not get angry at the mutilator.[11]"
======
He said he does not like the economy class in his air travel because of the smell and the comfort. He said he enjoys the business class.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Aloka
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Aloka » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:55 am

sarathw wrote:He said he does not like the economy class in his air travel because of the smell and the comfort. He said he enjoys the business class.
Sorry but I don't understand your point. The Buddha said he had a bad back somewhere in the suttas. I don't think being on a high level means that one doesn't notice smells or feel discomfort or enjoyment. One would be rather like a zombie or a robot otherwise.


.

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:03 pm

I am just referring to third Bhumi according to Mahayana.
I do not think HHDL put up with someone if he tries to cut him to pieces.
Otherwise, he wouldn't have run away from the Tibet.
I am not saying what he is doing now is wrong.
What I am saying is he has not even attain third Bhumi.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:08 pm

feel discomfort or enjoyment.
I travel economy all the time even though I have a very bad back pain.
If I were him I save the money and donate to poor Tibetans.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Grigoris
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:31 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:10 am
Which means there could be more than one Buddha at a time.
The Mahayana teaches that there atre infitie Buddhas scattered throughout infinite world-systems.
When Mahayana had last Buddha?
Is HHDL a Buddha?
He is considered to be an emanation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara.
Buddha-Weekly-chenrezig-avalokitesvara-with-tara-and-amitabha-Buddhism.jpg
If not which Bhumi he is in according to your opinion?
I don't know him personally, so I really cannot say. I don't particularly care, to tell the truth. I have enough problems trying to figure out the extent of my stupidity and ignorance without wasting my time guessing about other's...
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:31 pm
Is HHDL a Buddha?
He is considered to be an emanation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara.

Image
What does that mean?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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