Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:09 pm

"Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL."
I thought above statement is an extraordinary claim by HHL.
It is worthwhile to substantiate his claims or reject them.

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santa100
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:59 pm

Per DN 16's Four Great References, before one starts investigating the validity of some claim, it's important to "neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases". The OP did not pass this pre-requisite for at the 19:45th minute of the video, HHDL said it is "difficult" to have a deep understanding of 4NT, not "cannot" have a deep understanding of 4NT. After that has been established clearly, one then can go and look up the discourses and books of disciplines to find out for oneself. I did not find any and will conclude that that was his own opinion, not of the Buddha's. Don't get me wrong though, HHDL is still a great teacher and his lecture provides lots of valuable info. that could help with one's practice..

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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:54 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:09 pm
It is worthwhile to substantiate his claims or reject them.
There are a variety of views on Buddhist doctrine and practice out there. Are you intending to "substantiate or reject" all of them? That might take some time...

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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:57 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:09 pm
"Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL."
OK, I listened to a couple of minutes of it. Actually, he says
"I think it is very difficult to get a deep understanding...".
I think the HHDL is entitled to have an opinion...

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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:34 pm

Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:21 pm
if was true there would be no people understanding the teachings before mahayana was developed xD
Indeed. I love when people use simple logic to refute the ludicrous.

:thumbsup:

But as Mike said, HHDL may have been inadvertently misrepresented by Sarath.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)


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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:49 pm

Disciple wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:45 pm
Irrelevant
Also not a very skilful way of phrasing such queries. As I implied in a previous post, it would take Sarath quite a while to refute the views of all Buddhists that he disagrees with, and what would be the point?

Clearly the HHDL's circumstances and choices have led him down a particular path. Others have gone down different paths. I've no particular desire to follow HHDL, but I've been to a couple of presentations by him, and he definitely had some useful things to say (I'm afraid that 5 years later I can't recall the details, but he did talk about the Noble Truths...), and was very inspiring.

In my opinion, if teachers are not in one's "inner circle", then there are two options that may be useful:
1. Ignore them - you can't learn about everything!
2. Instead of asking: "How can I prove this wrong?" ask: "What can I learn from this?" Is there something that HHDL says about the Noble Truths that help to deepen your own understanding? If not, you could go back to option 1...

As Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda says here, ideas from other teachers can sometimes be helpful:
“I didn’t quote from the Mahāyāna texts in the Nibbāna
sermons,” he says, “because there was no need. All that was
needed was already found in the Suttas. Teachers like Nāgārjuna
brought to light what was already there but was hidden from
view. Unfortunately his later followers turned it in to a vāda.”

Questions & Answers On Dhamma
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:55 pm

inadvertently misrepresented by Sarath.
Ok, Shall we change the title to and discuss it.
"Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL."
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:55 pm
Ok, Shall we change the title to and discuss it.
And it is done...

And with that said, I'll echo what Mike said above...
In my opinion, if teachers are not in one's "inner circle", then there are two options that may be useful:
1. Ignore them - you can't learn about everything!
2. Instead of asking: "How can I prove this wrong?" ask: "What can I learn from this?" Is there something that HHDL says about the Noble Truths that help to deepen your own understanding? If not, you could go back to option 1...
Unless you work for a fact checking site, there is little benefit trying to refute anything and everything that may be said by anyone.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 pm

Are you intending to "substantiate or reject" all of them?
No.
I think HHDL is a special person.
I have listened to many Mahayana teachers and I found they are different to Theravada monks and they have some specialty.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:02 pm

if was true there would be no people understanding the teachings before mahayana was developed xD
Perhaps this is not valid anymore as the title has changed.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:34 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:59 pm
Per DN 16's Four Great References, before one starts investigating the validity of some claim, it's important to "neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant’s statement. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases". The OP did not pass this pre-requisite for at the 19:45th minute of the video, HHDL said it is "difficult" to have a deep understanding of 4NT, not "cannot" have a deep understanding of 4NT. After that has been established clearly, one then can go and look up the discourses and books of disciplines to find out for oneself. I did not find any and will conclude that that was his own opinion, not of the Buddha's. Don't get me wrong though, HHDL is still a great teacher and his lecture provides lots of valuable info. that could help with one's practice..
Is the Dalai Lama a mendicant? When was the last time he went on the rounds to get food? Not that it really matters to me, but let's at least talk factually. Is he any more than a figure head? He has indulged quite a bit in politics and immersed himself in the spotlight making him somewhat of a superstar in the religious field. Does anyone really think he is an Arahant?

SarathW
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching it is difficult have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL

Post by SarathW » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 am

Does anyone really think he is an Arahant?
No Arahants in Mahayana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Garrib
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Re: Without Mahayana and Tantric teaching you can't have a deep understanding of four noble truths-HHDL.

Post by Garrib » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:34 pm
Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:21 pm
if was true there would be no people understanding the teachings before mahayana was developed xD
Indeed. I love when people use simple logic to refute the ludicrous.

:thumbsup:

But as Mike said, HHDL may have been inadvertently misrepresented by Sarath.

Metta,
Paul. :)
To be fair, it may be (and indeed would seem quite likely) that HHDL is not making assertions about people's ability to understand the Dhamma as it was taught by the Buddha directly. Perhaps he believes that some important aspects of the teachings were lost or had been structured in a way that made them difficult to understand, but that certain texts preserved in Sanskrit ( commentary or otherwise) might help people to understand the deeper meaning/implication of those teachings.

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