Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Grigoris
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:16 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:11 am
I am no expert. I only live here. I can only tell you that your logic and deductions miss the mark by a long shot. This topic is of no interest to me at all. I can only wonder at why it is interesting to you?
Sorry, but if you want me to take your analysis of my view seriously, you are going to have to come up with something a little more analytical than: "U iz dum-ass."

As for my interest: why is that of any interest to you? :tongue:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Saengnapha
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:18 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:16 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:11 am
I am no expert. I only live here. I can only tell you that your logic and deductions miss the mark by a long shot. This topic is of no interest to me at all. I can only wonder at why it is interesting to you?
Sorry, but if you want me to take your analysis of my view seriously, you are going to have to come up with something a little more analytical than: "U iz dum-ass."
Nothing seems to dent your stubborn mind.

Are you planning on moving here? Is that why you are interested in these kinds of things? Are you becoming a Theravadin? Will you be giving up your Tibetan status and practices?

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Grigoris
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:42 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:18 am
Nothing seems to dent your stubborn mind.
If somebody can come up with something vaguley logical I am willing to change my mind. Up until now people have just been resorting to ad hom arguments (cf your above quoted comment), denial, false equivalences and appeals to authority.
Are you planning on moving here? Is that why you are interested in these kinds of things? Are you becoming a Theravadin? Will you be giving up your Tibetan status and practices?
You want to marry me? Unless you want to marry me (or at least begin a serious committed relationship with me) it is none of your business.

This is a discussion forum, I am discussing. I do not think I have been particularly rude or illogical, so I see no reason why I should not continue to discuss. If you do not want to discuss the issue (you said the subject is of no interest to you), if you just want to level personal criticisms and ask completely irrelevant questions, then maybe you should go to another thread and find somebody else to do this with/to.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Aloka
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Aloka » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:48 am

This is a discussion forum, I am discussing. I do not think I have been particularly rude or illogical, so I see no reason why I should not continue to discuss. If you do not want to discuss the issue (you said the subject is of no interest to you), if you just want to level personal criticisms and ask completely irrelevant questions, then maybe you should go to another thread and find somebody else to do this with/to.

:goodpost:


.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:56 am

Greetings,

Interesting mudra, Aloka... :?

Thankfully, Tantrayana is not Theravada, so I needn't learn it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:08 am

probably the vast majority cannot explain what the Five Precepts are; let alone the Four Noble Truths. :roll:
Unfortunately, this applies to Sri Lanka as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bundokji
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:21 am

Will wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:59 pm
The Pali tradition of practice has certain keynotes, I would surmise (under correction of course) that one of them is avoiding the use or indulgence in, of personal desire-filled thoughts, words & deeds.

Tantra does use desire-filled thoughts, words & deeds, that is why it is consider a dangerous path for many.
And i think this is the crux of the matter.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Bundokji
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:27 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:50 am
Yes, I believe so, if it is in line with the teachings of the Three Marks of existence (or the Four Dharma Seals) then I believe it is Dharma and as such the teaching of a Buddha (Buddhism)
So, if a thought of sensuality arises in the mind, one observes it as anicca dukkha anatta, is this how Tantra practiced? or does it go further than that to seeking sensuality and using it as part of their practice?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:29 am

Greetings,
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:21 am
Will wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:59 pm
The Pali tradition of practice has certain keynotes, I would surmise (under correction of course) that one of them is avoiding the use or indulgence in, of personal desire-filled thoughts, words & deeds.

Tantra does use desire-filled thoughts, words & deeds, that is why it is consider a dangerous path for many.
And i think this is the crux of the matter.
:goodpost:

Here is an example, as it is understood in the suttas...

MN 57: Kukkuravatika

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:46 am

Here is an example, as it is understood in the suttas...
There is another Sutta where a monk had a wrong view that it is ok to touch a woman as far as you do not have the desire for it.
I can't recall the sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Grigoris
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:46 am
Here is an example, as it is understood in the suttas...
There is another Sutta where a monk had a wrong view that it is ok to touch a woman as far as you do not have the desire for it.
I can't recall the sutta.
Just as well we are not monks then, isn't it?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:07 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:27 am
So, if a thought of sensuality arises in the mind, one observes it as anicca dukkha anatta, is this how Tantra practiced? or does it go further than that to seeking sensuality and using it as part of their practice?
Why would you seek sensuality? It is everywhere! :smile:

Basically, as far as I understand it (and my understanding is weak):

All phenomena have the same nature (or more to the point: all phenomena lack an essential nature).

So ESSENTIALLY there is no difference between:

desire/compassion
hatred/love
greed/generosity
jealousy/sympathetic joy
ignorance/wisdom

In terms of underlying qualities, one could say that the afflictions are based in self-grasping and self-cherishing, whereas the antidotes are based in a selfless attitude.

Again though we see that the differentiation is based on an essentially non-existent phenomenon (self).

So... If one can remain in a non-dualising state of mind, based on a realisation of the emptiness of self and phenomena (our true state of mind beyond grasping, aversion and ignorance), then all phenomena have "one-taste": the taste of emptiness.

So...

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Now when one practices Tantra there are a number of safety features:

If one is incapable of remaining in a non-dual state then one should approach the phenomenon using wisdom and compassion as their guiding principles. If one is incapble of the selfless application of these principles, then one should practice renunciation of the phenomenon.

That is why when somebody is practicing Buddhist Tantra they do not reject the other Yana. Actually we are bound by (and observe) three sets of vows as Tantric practitioners: Tantric vows, Bodhisattva vows and the Precepts.

Now sometimes you come across people (ignorant fools) that will tell you that Tantra means you just "go for it" and that one is beyond the force of karma. But that is complete and utter BS. Remaining in the natural state of mind (Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Prajnaparamita) is freakin' tough work. If you commit a deed when not in this state, then the karmic consequences will be suffered, regardless of whether you regard yourself a Tantrika or not.

Misconceptions abound regarding Tantra, mainly fed by New Age wankery and by the actions of those that have an extremely shallow understanding of what it means to be a Tantric practitioner.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

SarathW
Posts: 9967
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:46 pm

So ESSENTIALLY there is no difference between:

desire/compassion
hatred/love
greed/generosity
jealousy/sympathetic joy
ignorance/wisdom
I think this is the wrong view according to Theravada.
This does not fitting to Noble Eightfold Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bundokji
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Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by Bundokji » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:07 pm
Why would you seek sensuality? It is everywhere! :smile:

Basically, as far as I understand it (and my understanding is weak):

All phenomena have the same nature (or more to the point: all phenomena lack an essential nature).

So ESSENTIALLY there is no difference between:

desire/compassion
hatred/love
greed/generosity
jealousy/sympathetic joy
ignorance/wisdom

In terms of underlying qualities, one could say that the afflictions are based in self-grasping and self-cherishing, whereas the antidotes are based in a selfless attitude.

Again though we see that the differentiation is based on an essentially non-existent phenomenon (self).

So... If one can remain in a non-dualising state of mind, based on a realisation of the emptiness of self and phenomena (our true state of mind beyond grasping, aversion and ignorance), then all phenomena have "one-taste": the taste of emptiness.

So...

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Now when one practices Tantra there are a number of safety features:

If one is incapable of remaining in a non-dual state then one should approach the phenomenon using wisdom and compassion as their guiding principles. If one is incapble of the selfless application of these principles, then one should practice renunciation of the phenomenon.

That is why when somebody is practicing Buddhist Tantra they do not reject the other Yana. Actually we are bound by (and observe) three sets of vows as Tantric practitioners: Tantric vows, Bodhisattva vows and the Precepts.

Now sometimes you come across people (ignorant fools) that will tell you that Tantra means you just "go for it" and that one is beyond the force of karma. But that is complete and utter BS. Remaining in the natural state of mind (Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Prajnaparamita) is freakin' tough work. If you commit a deed when not in this state, then the karmic consequences will be suffered, regardless of whether you regard yourself a Tantrika or not.

Misconceptions abound regarding Tantra, mainly fed by New Age wankery and by the actions of those that have an extremely shallow understanding of what it means to be a Tantric practitioner.

From my limited understanding of the Buddha's teachings, the training is generally conservative in the sense that it encourages the practitioner of seeing danger is tiniest faults, it acknowledges that we have tendencies and encourage us to go against the grain, it warns us from thinking "it will not happen to me" ...etc

I also find the universal nature of the three marks of existence can be easily misunderstood and misused. For example,when you say:
All phenomena have the same nature (or more to the point: all phenomena lack an essential nature).

So ESSENTIALLY there is no difference between:

desire/compassion
hatred/love
greed/generosity
jealousy/sympathetic joy
ignorance/wisdom
The way you introduced the lack of essential nature makes your statement (a phenomena) lacking essential nature hence we are back to square one: There are good Kamma and bad Kamma.

Also what you described as selfless attitude is open to many interpretation. For example, you might encounter a human being or an animal suffering, and you decide to end their lives out of compassion or selflessness. However, this would be against the first precept.

Following the precepts is more selfless in my opinion as you adhere to rules or a code of conduct that is external to you. It also leaves less room for "personal opinion" because a rule is a rule. Adhering to rules is also based on a selfless view of human nature that we cannot control ourselves all the time (Anatta) and certain actions even if we call them exceptions, can easily turn into a habits (Kamma/slippery slope)

I can relate to your description of "ignorant fools" because for a long time i tried to justify my indulgence in sensuality by using the three marks of existence and this led me no where except to more entanglement. At least now when/if i break the precepts i don't try to justify my actions but acknowledge my foolishness. The Buddha described the mind as subtle and always getting what it wants.
Let the discerning man guard the mind, so difficult to detect and extremely subtle, seizing whatever it desires. A guarded mind brings happiness.
Personally, knowing the tendencies of my mind and the vast majority of human beings, i would be careful not to recommend or suggest dangerous practices as a part of Buddhism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

SarathW
Posts: 9967
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is there an equivalent to Tantra in Theravada Buddhism?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:03 pm

All phenomena have the same nature (or more to the point: all phenomena lack an essential nature).
This is the right view. With that, you had the wrong thoughts instead of right thought (renunciation)
Can someone explain how the wrong thought comes with the right view?
Perhaps not fully comprehending the Dukkha.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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