can discover path by own efforts?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sat May 26, 2018 8:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:09 am
Hi Saengnapha

That's exactly what the suttas say. Jhana is not insight and is only one of the fabrucated tools of the path. And the concept of self is one if the the key problems to be overcome.

However, it seems you put little weight on these texts, so your view of the path is, understandably, different and there seems to be little lest to discuss.

Mike
Perhaps I see things differently than you. I am not looking at these texts, I am looking at my own reflection and seeing its illusoriness. Words are part of that illusoriness, as are beliefs, grasping, and clinging. Where is the path if there is no one to walk it? Do you really conceptualize yourself walking a path? If you do, I do not think you get what the Buddha really was about. Some would call this provisional. I think it is all made up by The Church of Latter Day Saints, after the death of the Buddha and the free for all that followed. Or, perhaps the Buddha's original thought of not proclaiming the Dhamma was more appropriate before he was talked into 'teaching' and trying to put a form on all of this. Hmm?

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robertk
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by robertk » Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am

. Where is the path if there is no one to walk it? Do you really conceptualize yourself walking a path?
There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31

Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 4:32 am

robertk wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am
. Where is the path if there is no one to walk it? Do you really conceptualize yourself walking a path?
There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31
Yes, good quotes illustrating the same point. I wonder why we have to quote authority before it is accepted as being the case? If something is true, do we need to look at past statements of others to corroborate our own experience? What do you think?

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robertk
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by robertk » Sun May 27, 2018 6:17 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:32 am
robertk wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am
. Where is the path if there is no one to walk it? Do you really conceptualize yourself walking a path?
There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31
Yes, good quotes illustrating the same point. I wonder why we have to quote authority before it is accepted as being the case? If something is true, do we need to look at past statements of others to corroborate our own experience? What do you think?
soo without the Buddha and his teaching this level of understanding and its precise expression is impossible.
Krishnamurti, remember, studied some Buddhist texts : and still was far, far, far away( IMHO) from expressing such things accurately.

Sooo , IMHO, if one really does see how profound these quotes are one will respect, most highly, the Buddha, and arahats who faithfully preserved and carried on the Dhamma.

Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 6:23 am

robertk wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:17 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:32 am
robertk wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am


There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31
Yes, good quotes illustrating the same point. I wonder why we have to quote authority before it is accepted as being the case? If something is true, do we need to look at past statements of others to corroborate our own experience? What do you think?
soo without the Buddha and his teaching this level of understanding and its precise expression is impossible.
Krishnamurti, remember, studied some Buddhist texts : and still was far, far, far away( IMHO) from expressing such things accurately.

Sooo , IMHO, if one really does see how profound these quotes are one will respect, most highly, the Buddha, and arahats who faithfully preserved and carried on the Dhamma.
This has nothing to do with my questions, especially your comparative notes on Buddha vs JK. Why do we have to quote either? If you see the fact of something, do you need further proof of it through reading about it? This seems odd to me. You seem to hold the Buddha as the ONLY authority. Of course, you are free to do that, but this does not authenticate anything. Your own factual experience does that precisely. If it doesn't, it is not factual.

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robertk
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by robertk » Sun May 27, 2018 6:28 am

Why do we have to quote either? If you see the fact of something, do you need further proof of it through reading about it? This seems odd to me. You seem to hold the Buddha as the ONLY authority. Of course, you are free to do that, but this does not authenticate anything. Your own factual experience does that precisely. If it doesn't, it is not factual
Because when we learn something - especially something important and profound- it is natural that there will be gratitude to the teacher. Not giving proper attribution seems wrong.

Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 7:03 am

robertk wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:28 am
Why do we have to quote either? If you see the fact of something, do you need further proof of it through reading about it? This seems odd to me. You seem to hold the Buddha as the ONLY authority. Of course, you are free to do that, but this does not authenticate anything. Your own factual experience does that precisely. If it doesn't, it is not factual
Because when we learn something - especially something important and profound- it is natural that there will be gratitude to the teacher. Not giving proper attribution seems wrong.
You are saying that when you learn something about your experience it is because of the teacher. I am not sure that this is the case. You learned it and it is factual for you. You did the work. The teacher might have told you to do the work but they didn't make you learn what you learned. My own teacher would never take responsibility for anyone's own learning and was disinterested in being the recipient of adulation. But, of course we feel a sense of kinship to one who helps us to stand on our own feet.

When we learn for ourselves, why don't we simply quote ourselves? The topic of why we quote others has nothing to do with our discoveries.

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robertk
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by robertk » Sun May 27, 2018 8:43 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:03 am
[
You are saying that when you learn something about your experience it is because of the teacher. I am not sure that this is the case. You learned it and it is factual for you. You did the work. The teacher might have told you to do the work but they didn't make you learn what you learned. My own teacher would never take responsibility for anyone's own learning and was disinterested in being the recipient of adulation. But, of course we feel a sense of kinship to one who helps us to stand on our own feet.

When we learn for ourselves, why don't we simply quote ourselves? The topic of why we quote others has nothing to do with our discoveries.
I am saying that, if your teacher (U.G. krishnamurti, not the other, more well known one?) had any profound insight , then this would have been due to in some way coming across what was originally proclaimed by the Buddha.

He may well have, by his own devices, come to some relatively trivial ability/resignation of being able to accept things the way they are: a useful achievement, no doubt; but nothing superhuman , sublime, deep and difficult to comprehend, as is the teaching of the Sama-SamBuddha of this Buddha sasana.

SarathW
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Re: can discover path by own efforts?

Post by SarathW » Sun May 27, 2018 9:16 am

Where is the path if there is no one to walk it?
The way I understand there is a person walk the path.
When you come to the destination there is no more a person to walk.
Because you come to the destination.
This so-called being (person) who walk the path is the suffering.
You end the suffering when you reach the destination.
No suffering no being (person).
Last edited by SarathW on Sun May 27, 2018 9:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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budo
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Re: can discover path by own efforts?

Post by budo » Sun May 27, 2018 9:19 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:16 am
Where is the path if there is no one to walk it?
The way I understand there is a person walk the path.
When you come to the destination there is no more a person to walk.
Because you come to the destination.
Thanissaro bhikkhu says the banana peel exists for a reason, without it there is mush. You discard the banana peel when you're ready to eat, but if you discard the banana peel before you eat it then you get a mess. The path has a purpose, don't disregard the path, the eightfold path is also the best path as the Buddha said in the handful of leaves sutta that he could have taught many other things that he realized and attained but chose not to.

In the mind moment that occurs when one attains Nibbana all elements of the eightfold path align, are balanced, and arise: right concentration (the 4 jhanas), right mindfulness, right view, right effort, etc...

Also it is wrong view to disregard the 5 aggregates even though they are no-self. Just because they are no-self doesn't mean they don't produce kamma. This is why many advainta/taoists are nihilists and defeatists who just sit back passively without putting in any effort. If you rent a car, you may not own it, but you're still responsible for the damage it causes.

At the end of the day removing the defilements requires a lot of hard work and effort, even if you don't "own" them.

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Mr Man
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 27, 2018 10:25 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:32 am
robertk wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am
. Where is the path if there is no one to walk it? Do you really conceptualize yourself walking a path?
There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31
Yes, good quotes illustrating the same point. I wonder why we have to quote authority before it is accepted as being the case? If something is true, do we need to look at past statements of others to corroborate our own experience? What do you think?
Sometimes truth or understanding is not fully absorbed. There is an intuition or a moment of understanding and the articulation of another can help.

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robertk
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Re: can discover path by own efforts?

Post by robertk » Sun May 27, 2018 10:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:16 am
Where is the path if there is no one to walk it?
The way I understand there is a person walk the path.
When you come to the destination there is no more a person to walk.
Because you come to the destination.
(person)......
and this person who walks the path, and who floats off or vanishes, after reaching the destination, is he one of the khandhas or seperate from the khandhas, or mixed in with the khandhas, or..?

SarathW
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Re: can discover path by own efforts?

Post by SarathW » Sun May 27, 2018 12:35 pm

and this person who walks the path, and who floats off or vanishes, after reaching the destination, is he one of the khandhas or seperate from the khandhas, or mixed in with the khandhas, or..?
Good question.
Once you reach the destination there is no more Bhava since there is no suffering except bodily pain.
Only an Arahant will answer this question.
Whether Thatagata exists after death is not a valid question.
The way I understand Thathagata before death and after death is the same except no five aggregate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 3:32 pm

robertk wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:43 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 7:03 am
[
You are saying that when you learn something about your experience it is because of the teacher. I am not sure that this is the case. You learned it and it is factual for you. You did the work. The teacher might have told you to do the work but they didn't make you learn what you learned. My own teacher would never take responsibility for anyone's own learning and was disinterested in being the recipient of adulation. But, of course we feel a sense of kinship to one who helps us to stand on our own feet.

When we learn for ourselves, why don't we simply quote ourselves? The topic of why we quote others has nothing to do with our discoveries.
I am saying that, if your teacher (U.G. krishnamurti, not the other, more well known one?) had any profound insight , then this would have been due to in some way coming across what was originally proclaimed by the Buddha.

He may well have, by his own devices, come to some relatively trivial ability/resignation of being able to accept things the way they are: a useful achievement, no doubt; but nothing superhuman , sublime, deep and difficult to comprehend, as is the teaching of the Sama-SamBuddha of this Buddha sasana.
Neither of the K's studied Buddhism at all. I don't know where you got this idea. Neither seemed interested in the Buddhist teachings although Buddhists did come to see both of them, monks, too. However, you are free to think whatever way you want to about them, even demean them, as you tend to do. Still, you are not having a dialogue with me but putting your ideas about the supremacy of the Buddha without any factual information regarding any of this.

Saengnapha
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Re: Arguments in favor of being able to hear in the first jhana

Post by Saengnapha » Sun May 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:25 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:32 am
robertk wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am


There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."
Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"
XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"
XVII31
Yes, good quotes illustrating the same point. I wonder why we have to quote authority before it is accepted as being the case? If something is true, do we need to look at past statements of others to corroborate our own experience? What do you think?
Sometimes truth or understanding is not fully absorbed. There is an intuition or a moment of understanding and the articulation of another can help.
Perhaps seemingly. I wouldn't call that a fact, though. Plus, it really depends on what we are talking about.

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