Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:00 am

What do u guys think of these expressions, the first thing that come to your mind.

1) occult Buddhism
2) occult knowledge that arises from jhana

Caodemarte
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Caodemarte » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:26 am

form wrote:What do u guys think of these expressions, the first thing that come to your mind.

1) occult Buddhism
2) occult knowledge that arises from jhana
If I was doing a free association test I would say "Waste of time." This is pretty much what every Buddhist monk has said when asked in my presence with one exception. That exception was an American Theravada monk in Thailand who said that it was kind of interesting to talk about, but not of importance.

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:32 am

Caodemarte wrote:
form wrote:What do u guys think of these expressions, the first thing that come to your mind.

1) occult Buddhism
2) occult knowledge that arises from jhana
If I was doing a free association test I would say "Waste of time." This is pretty much what every Buddhist monk has said when asked in my presence with one exception. That exception was an American Theravada monk in Thailand who said that it was kind of interesting to talk about, but not of importance.
No bro, my intention was to share what I notice when I read a book by prof gombrich, he use the term occult knowledge arises from meditation. In the nikaya, the term used think is direct knowledge. Occult has a negative meaning in some ways.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:34 am

form wrote:What do u guys think of these expressions, the first thing that come to your mind.

1) occult Buddhism
Early British Theosophists, especially Annie Besant and A.P. Sinnett. The smell of mothballs and French polish in Christmas Humphreys' home in St. John's Wood. Dust-covered tomes by Blavatsky in the Reykjavík Lodge of the Icelandic Theosophical Society. Stuffy retired colonels and silly old spinsters nattering about Ascended Masters and how the One became the Two, and the Two became the Three...
form wrote:2) occult knowledge that arises from jhana
Mid to late 19th century translations of Pali texts.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 am

Dhammanando wrote:
form wrote:What do u guys think of these expressions, the first thing that come to your mind.

1) occult Buddhism
Early British Theosophists, especially Annie Besant and A.P. Sinnett. The smell of mothballs and French polish in Christmas Humphreys' home in St. John's Wood. Dust-covered tomes by Blavatsky in the Reykjavík Lodge of the Icelandic Theosophical Society. Stuffy retired colonels and silly old spinsters nattering about Ascended Masters and how the One became the Two, and the Two became the Three...
:D

:goodpost:

Kim

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Grigoris
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Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 1:20 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:24 am
form wrote:Is it correct to say tibetan buddhism is a mixture of early Buddhism with braminism and Shamanism?
Yes, with regard to Brahminism and Shamanism. But the Buddhist component is not early Buddhism, but rather the very late-stage Buddhism of India's monastic universities. Of all the Buddhist nations in Asia, the Tibetans are probably the least well-informed about early Buddhism, largely as a consequence of Atīśa's decree that the Āgama sūtras should not be translated into the Tibetan language.
Actually Tibetan Buddhist Tantric practices were imported to Tibet from India where they were learnt from Indian Buddhist Siddha. Except for terma, of course.

AND the Agama texts exist in the Tibetan Canon, they are in the Kangyur collection.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dmytro
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dmytro » Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:20 pm
AND the Agama texts exist in the Tibetan Canon, they are in the Kangyur collection.
Very few of them.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:20 pm
AND the Agama texts exist in the Tibetan Canon, they are in the Kangyur collection.
Oh? Are you referring to the ten Mahāsūtras and suchlike or do you mean that the canon contains complete Āgamas?

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Dmytro
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dmytro » Mon May 14, 2018 1:51 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:24 am
Atīśa's decree that the Āgama sūtras should not be translated into the Tibetan language.
Bhante, would you please give a reference?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 14, 2018 2:34 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:51 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:24 am
Atīśa's decree that the Āgama sūtras should not be translated into the Tibetan language.
Bhante, would you please give a reference?
It was stated in a post by Malcolm Smith on the old E-sangha, but I didn't keep a copy.

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm
Oh? Are you referring to the ten Mahāsūtras and suchlike or do you mean that the canon contains complete Āgamas?
Kangyur.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm
Oh? Are you referring to the ten Mahāsūtras and suchlike or do you mean that the canon contains complete Āgamas?
Kangyur.
There is no mention in your link of even one Āgama. The sūtra sub-link in it consists mostly of Mahāyāna sutras, with the Āgamic texts being limited to the handful of mahāsūtras.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 5:19 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm
Oh? Are you referring to the ten Mahāsūtras and suchlike or do you mean that the canon contains complete Āgamas?
Kangyur.
There is no mention in your link of even one Āgama. The sūtra sub-link in it consists mostly of Mahāyāna sutras, with the Āgamic texts being limited to the handful of mahāsūtras.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html
My dear Venerable, in the Mahayna the Sutra are the Agama! :smile:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dmytro
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dmytro » Tue May 15, 2018 5:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:19 pm
My dear Venerable, in the Mahayna the Sutra are the Agama! :smile:
Why then does Lotus Sutra state the following:
adhimānīnna seveta vinaye cāgame sthitān|
arhantasaṁmatān bhikṣūn duḥśīlāṁścaiva varjayet||4||


One should avoid those arrogant, who follow the Vinaya and adhere to Agama,
Monks with dubious virtue who consider the Arahantship to be topmost.

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 11:19 am

Dmytro wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:11 am
Why then does Lotus Sutra state the following:
adhimānīnna seveta vinaye cāgame sthitān|
arhantasaṁmatān bhikṣūn duḥśīlāṁścaiva varjayet||4||


One should avoid those arrogant, who follow the Vinaya and adhere to Agama,
Monks with dubious virtue who consider the Arahantship to be topmost.
Don't know. You'll have to ask the Buddha that one. :smile:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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