Musings about Tantra...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by chownah » Thu May 10, 2018 2:05 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 pm
"A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
this is not just talking about uposatha.
I don't know anything about tantric sex but isn't it supposed to just be a way for those who want to have sex to do it in a way that might bring them to a better realization of the way things really are? I mean people are going to have sex anyway.....so is tantric sex a step forward for them?......just wondering.....I don't know anything about tantric sex.
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu May 10, 2018 2:16 am

it's definitely not

"that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire—that is impossible."
Alagaddūpama Sutta

"Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"
[...]
"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

arguably it would be better to have sex just because it feels good and you like to feel good than to do it because you think it's a beneficial spiritual practice
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 10, 2018 10:54 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 pm
this is not just talking about uposatha.
If you cherry pick quotes and leave out the concluding paragraph, you can make it sound like anything. ;)

"Do not kill a living being;
do not take what is not given;
do not speak a lie;
do not drink intoxicants;
abstain from sexual intercourse;
do not eat food at night, at the wrong time;
do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes;
use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat.
"This is called the eight-factored observance made known by the Awakened One who has reached the end of suffering.

"With a gladdened mind observe the observance day (uposatha), complete with its eight factors, on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth days of the (lunar) fortnight and also the special holiday of the half month. In the morning, with a pure heart and a joyful mind, a wise man, after observing the uposatha, should distribute suitable food and drink to the community of bhikkhus. He should support his mother and father as his duty and engage in lawful trading. A layman who carries this out diligently goes to the devas called "Self-radiant."


In the Tapussa Sutta the Buddha says:

"Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace."

Here he is clearly stating that sensual pleasure is an obstacle to renunciation (monkhood), not to practice per se. Nor is he saying that lay people should refrain from sensual pleasure. The teaching is about how attachment to sensual pleasure is an obstacle to renunciation.

The Kama Sutta talks about attachment to sensual pleasures in general, not attachment to sexual pleasure specifically.

But here we start to approach the crux of tantric sexual practices (again I have to remind people that Buddhist Tantra is not JUST about sexual practices): for a Tantric practitioner the problem is attachment or aversion to certain activities (based on ignorance of their true nature), not the activities themselves.
the buddha never encouraged sex or described it any beneficial way.
Not in the Pali Canon, no.
the dhamma is the same dhamma for everyone, there are just different levels of practice
Hmmmm...
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 10, 2018 1:24 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:16 am
arguably it would be better to have sex just because it feels good and you like to feel good...
In many cases: Yes.
...than to do it because you think it's a beneficial spiritual practice
Except that in some rare cases it is a beneficial spiritual practice.

Overall though: I agree with you.

I think that the Tantric teachers see this quite clearly too in Western students, which is why it is rare as hen's teeth to find a real teacher that gives Karmamudra practice outside of a strict retreat setting. Frauds abound. I have seen more than enough of them myself.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 10, 2018 1:35 pm






For those that wish to learn a little about Buddhist Tantra from something other than a brief dictionary definition.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 10:54 am
I have to remind people that Buddhist Tantra is not JUST about sexual practice

It is my experience, that (predominantly with the superficial but still obsessed average westerner) the mere mentioning of 'sex' makes any subsequent discussion on the philosophical grounding of tantric traditions all but impossible.

This is all the more sad, as there is literally a world of traditions out there; but the boon of our modern time is, that the larger part of human knowledge is just a few mouse-clicks away.

A very good start to read up about the thought behind the involvement of sexual practices to reach higher stages of realization and spriritual development would be Chapter 8 of Young, Serenity - Courtesans and tantric consorts: sexualities in buddhist narrative, iconography and ritual.

The whole book (around 300 pages) is however not just concentrating on tantric philosophy, it also has a number of interesting musings about the role of women in Buddhism in general, starting (of course) with Theravada. It is maybe unlucky from a modern perspective, that Theravada seems to encompass a picture of women mainly as a danger to spiritual development by leading men astray and as a strong source of desire (the below argument holds still true if you replace 'courtesan' with 'woman'):
p.121
The central obstacle to the Buddhist path of renunciation and the main cause of human suffering is desire, and courtesans are experts in desire—the male desire of their customers and their own greed. Indian literature represents the courtesan as one ruled by desire, both for sex and wealth, whose primary goal is to arouse desire in others.
When courtesans are converted, they reinforce the Buddhist teaching that all people can become Buddhists, even great sinners, and that not only women but even the worst women can be equal practitioners.
Only in literature which we would not class as Theravada any more, a more balanced, even equitable role of females is developed. A good example for this is the Manimekhalaï, a Tamil Buddhist poem from the 5-6th century about a courtesan converting to Buddhism and feeding people with a magic alms bowl.
p.126
Returning to the magic bowl, it powerfully links wives with Buddhist nuns, for both Buddhist nuns and monks begged their daily food mostly from housewives, as they continue to do throughout Southeast Asia. The virtuous housewife Atiraï is the first to offer food in Manimekhalaï’s bowl, and magically this food multiplies. As we saw in chapter 2, donations have important implications for Buddhists in that they generate merit, a spiritual reward. This is true for offerings of any kind, even the smallest. Monastics were understood to be particularly fruitful fields for the generation of merit, though often nuns were seen as less fruitful sources of merit.
...
In contrast, the scene of Atiraï filling Manimekhalaï’s bowl, which stimulates its endless supply of food, dramatically valorized the fruitfulness of donations to nuns.
Even though Sanskrit and Pali texts reflected a celibate male view that was threatened by women, we can see positive images of womanhood in the food offerings of young, attractive, and sexual women such as Sujata, and the desirable courtesan Amrapali.
This is in keeping with the South Asian view that women are repositories of a sacred power connected with their sexuality and fertility. Like all sacred power, such as that of the yaksis, it can bestow blessings or it can destroy. Men control this female power in both human women and goddesses through marriage; unmarried goddesses are considered unpredictable and dangerous, while married goddesses are benevolent. Similarly, the sacred powers of virtuous married women are channeled and controlled by patriarchal systems of reproduction.
The new idea in the Manimekhalaï is that a celibate woman, a Buddhist nun, can herself control and channel her own female powers.
In the Tamil literary tradition of south India as represented by the Manimekhalaï, women maintain their auspiciousness whether as celibates or as virtuous sexual women. Iconographically this is represented by the abundance of voluptuous female figures and loving couples found at south Indian Buddhist sites such as Nagarjunakonda and Åmaravati.
It is quite interesting, to my mind, that this less threatened, more open view of womanhood spread very quickly throughout Sri Lanka and the whole of maritime Southeast Asia and was only centuries later overcome by Mahaviharan dogmatism (what we call nowadays 'Theravada').

Coming to Tantric consorts, one does not need to delve in very deeply to see that the 'sex' component of it is rater a m inor side effect:
p 135:
Tantra refers to a wide range of religious paths that developed mainly in northern India, perhaps as early as the third century CE, among Buddhists, Hindus, and Jains, although it took several centuries to achieve widespread influence.
While its earliest history is unclear, we know that tantra drew extensively on pre-existing traditions such as yoga, the Vedic sacrifice, rituals of sacred union, and from tribal practices. In addition to conferring divine or magical powers (siddhis) on its adepts, it is described as a fast path to enlightenment (in a single lifetime), a path appropriate for the current dark age (kaliyuga), and one of its essential features is an abundance of female
symbolism.

p. 133
The yab/yum couple is one of the most ubiquitous images of Tantric Buddhist art. Representing the sexual union of divine beings with their consorts, these images strive to express the oneness of the two necessary elements for the generation of enlightenment: wisdom (Skt: prajñÅ; Tib: shes rab), a passive female principle, and skillful means (upÅya; thabs), an active male principle, joined together on the plane of ultimate reality. The bliss they experience arises from their apprehension of the essential emptiness (±unyatÅ; stong nyid) of all existent beings and objects.

p. 138:
The many stories about courtesans seducing ascetics remind us that from the earliest periods of South Asian religious history semen has been equated with spiritual power and ejaculation with the loss of power.
Sexual yoga takes this idea a step further, and completely reverses orthodox sexuality, wherein the female partner absorbs the sexual fluids of the male. This reversal, combined with the prohibition against ejaculation, makes the point that tantric sexual activity is not about normal procreation, but rather about procreating the energy that will lead to enlightenment. It does not produce life, it produces the cessation of life through enlightenment, and in this it participates fully in the tantric emphasis on practicing in cremation grounds.
Further interesting reads could be:

- Gordon, Brandon Lee - Development and Validation of a Tantric Sex Scale: Sexual-Mindfulness, Spiritual Purpose, and Genital-orgasm De-emphasis
- Clough, Brad - The Cultivation of Yogic Powers in the Pali Path Manuals of Theravada Buddhism
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Aloka
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Aloka » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:28 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:15 pm
regardless of what is found in vajrayana buddhism, the buddha declared sex to be a burning pit of coals, low, vulgar, ignoble, a bridge to be burned.
Have you read this sutta?

AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune

Once the Blessed One was staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. Then early in the morning the Blessed One put on his robes and, carrying his bowl and outer robe, went to the home of the householder, Nakula's father. On arrival, he sat down on a seat made ready. Then Nakula's father & Nakula's mother went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

And Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:

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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm
When courtesans are converted, they reinforce the Buddhist teaching that all people can become Buddhists, even great sinners, and that not only women but even the worst women can be equal practitioners.
Is the above inferring when courtesans are converted, they continue to work as courtesans? Or do they become ex-courtesans after they are converted; similar to how Angulimala became an ex-mass-murderer when born into the Noble Birth? Thanks :shrug:
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:40 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm
It is maybe unlucky from a modern perspective, that Theravada seems to encompass a picture of women mainly as a danger to spiritual development by leading men astray
Why 'unlucky?' :quote:

This seems to suggest the Dhamma is somehow incomplete and that it could be improved?

Another way we could view the situation is that it is highly unlucky that the modern perspective is so perverted from the natural order of things that it has to view the Dhamma as lacking in some way.
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by form » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:52 am

The equanimity from sex even at its highest level is mundane. It is not the same as that without the five cords of sense pleasures.

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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by AgarikaJ » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:14 pm

form wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:52 am
The equanimity from sex even at its highest level is mundane. It is not the same as that without the five cords of sense pleasures.
This is true, at least from a Theravada viewpoint. It does however not invalidate the point, that Tantra is not about the sex itself, but it is seen as a form of meditative process to achieve higher states of enlightenment.

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:25 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm
When courtesans are converted, they reinforce the Buddhist teaching that all people can become Buddhists, even great sinners, and that not only women but even the worst women can be equal practitioners.
Is the above inferring when courtesans are converted, they continue to work as courtesans? Or do they become ex-courtesans after they are converted; similar to how Angulimala became an ex-mass-murderer when born into the Noble Birth? Thanks :shrug:
An interesting question. At least in the case of Āmrapālī, it can be said from the Suttas that the Buddha accepted her invitation in the full knowledge of her ongoing line of work and accepted her present of her Mango Grove to the Sangha as the site of a monastery; she became a bhikkhunī herself only afterwards.
As there are also mentionings in the Sutta of other high disciples of the Buddha staying as her guests and giving Dhamma teachings, one must assume that the social interaction between Āmrapālī and the Buddha/his direct disciples was an ongoing and lengthy relationship before she became actually converted.

Actually, one of the more important teachings of the Buddha was spoken during his stay with her:
- https://suttacentral.net/sn47.1/en/bodhi
“Bhikkhus, this is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness. What four?
“Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating mind in mind, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world.
“This, bhikkhus, is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness.”
See also:
- https://suttacentral.net/sn47.1/en/sujato
- https://suttacentral.net/sn52.9/en/sujato
- https://suttacentral.net/an7.66/en/sujato
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrapali

The relationship of the Buddha with Sujata was a lot less complicated, basically nothing more than a chance encounter. But also to her, teh Buddha delivered a very personalized Dhamma teaching and she ordained as a bhikkhunī.
- https://suttacentral.net/an7.63/en/sujato
- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... tml#sujata
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sujata_an ... s_of_wives
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:40 pm
Why 'unlucky?' :quote: This seems to suggest the Dhamma is somehow incomplete and that it could be improved?
I chose these words, because from the Suttas, one can read (not) quite clearly, that the Buddha was willing to entertain complicated and lengthy relationships with diverse women, outside the Sangha, for their own sake (in the case of Āmrapālī it was clearly not only because she had a very close relationship with King Bimbisāra, himself one of the most important supporters of the early Sangha).

This is an obvious and integral part of the Buddha's Dhamma. It does not need improvement, but it is maybe a little bit too subtle for less perceptive students of the Suttas.

Therefore, what could have been improved was the selection of Suttas at the First Council at Rajgir. To my mind the chosen examples of the Buddha's teaching can at times be seen as a tad too subtle in working out this beautiful ability of the Buddha to be discerning with who he interacted and why (not just with regard to women, but as you bring up Aṅgulimāla, he is another good example where I find the passed down reasoning sparse and it would have been helpful if the Suttas would have been more verbose).

Alas, we have to work with the filtered-down Dhamma as selected by Mahākāśyapa, Ānanda and Upali. But that I am not alone in this thought that things are lacking show the immense amount of (necessary) commentaries to the Suttas and the Vinaya -- not least Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga, which "generally constitutes the orthodox understanding of Theravada scripture".

... and if the Dhamma would be clear to everybody, we would not actually have this discussion forum. ;)
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:20 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm
An interesting question. At least in the case of Āmrapālī, it can be said from the Suttas that the Buddha accepted her invitation in the full knowledge of her ongoing line of work and accepted her present of her Mango Grove to the Sangha as the site of a monastery...
Thanks. However the above does not necessarily means she attained any degree of genuine liberation; either minor or major.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by AgarikaJ » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:43 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:20 pm
AgarikaJ wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:34 pm
An interesting question. At least in the case of Āmrapālī, it can be said from the Suttas that the Buddha accepted her invitation in the full knowledge of her ongoing line of work and accepted her present of her Mango Grove to the Sangha as the site of a monastery...
Thanks. However the above does not necessarily means she attained any degree of genuine liberation; either minor or major.
According to the Therīgāthā in the Khuddaka Nikaya, she actually became an Arahant. It is, together with the Theragāthā, in general quite an informative read about some of the eminent first practitioners of the Dhamma, who all knew the Buddha personally.

I highly recommend to study it if one would want to know, not 'just' what the Buddha said to various people, but how they actually felt about this direct experience of the Dhamma. It is something simply impossible in this age of decline until Metteyya Buddha starts his teaching.

- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Of course, as mentioned before, the selective genesis of the Theravada canon does not give complete information everywhere on everything. More information about the life of Āmrapāli is extant, but for that you would have to start reading stuff like the (Mahayana) Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Manopubbangama » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:43 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:14 pm


This is an obvious and integral part of the Buddha's Dhamma. It does not need improvement, but it is maybe a little bit too subtle for less perceptive students of the Suttas.

Therefore, what could have been improved was the selection of Suttas at the First Council at Rajgir. To my mind the chosen examples of the Buddha's teaching can at times be seen as a tad too subtle in working out this beautiful ability of the Buddha to be discerning with who he interacted and why (not just with regard to women, but as you bring up Aṅgulimāla, he is another good example where I find the passed down reasoning sparse and it would have been helpful if the Suttas would have been more verbose).

Alas, we have to work with the filtered-down Dhamma as selected by Mahākāśyapa, Ānanda and Upali. But that I am not alone in this thought that things are lacking show the immense amount of (necessary) commentaries to the Suttas and the Vinaya -- not least Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga, which "generally constitutes the orthodox understanding of Theravada scripture".

... and if the Dhamma would be clear to everybody, we would not actually have this discussion forum. ;)


I see a lot of verbeage and no response to my question.

Is there something wrong with the way Buddhism views womenfolk or is there something wrong with the way modern society views womenfolk?

Talk straight.

Honesty doesn't require pontification.
This is an obvious and integral part of the Buddha's Dhamma. It does not need improvement, but it is maybe a little bit too subtle for less perceptive students of the Suttas.
So elucidate for us non-perceptive people who just can't grasp the subtlety that you have grasped...

If Mahākāśyapa, Ananda, and Upali threw out the feminist, womynnist theology that the Buddha was in favor of, and started mansplaining to posterity, let us see the subtle use of inference connecting the dots?

I am all ears and eyes.

As the Buddha said: "That which I have proclaimed and made known, Ananda, as the Teaching and the Discipline (Dhamma-Vinaya), that shall be your Master when I am gone" (D.16).
It is quite interesting, to my mind, that this less threatened, more open view of womanhood spread very quickly throughout Sri Lanka and the whole of maritime Southeast Asia and was only centuries later overcome by Mahaviharan dogmatism (what we call nowadays 'Theravada').
Do tell. :thinking:

If Theravada is to stand trial here, than its co-defendents shall be the chthonic demons of feminism and revisionism.

My first question of cross-examination is why does something not need improvement, yet at the same time feels "threatened" ?

Because a not-too-perceptive person could hypothetically mistake such a statement as....gee, I dunno, rationally incoherent?

Next up:
A very good start to read up about the thought behind the involvement of sexual practices to reach higher stages of realization and spriritual development would be Chapter 8 of Young, Serenity - Courtesans and tantric consorts: sexualities in buddhist narrative, iconography and ritual.
Why would allowing prostitutes, "whores" :quote: around monks develop them in some spiritual way?

I know us "Westerners" don't have the "subtlety" to understand what you understand, but I believe you should explain yourself out of compassion for the not-to-astute, who just don't get it.

Next question: do you think that maybe the gurus, located in places like San Francisco, write these new age booklets that you quote about Spirituality and genital orgasms, simply as a way to acquire a harem of naive, silly, not-too-bright girls to their cult with promises of Enlightenment in exchange for getting him off?
Buddhists, beware of spiritual transvestites.

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DooDoot
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:56 pm

AgarikaJ wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:43 pm
According to the Therīgāthā in the Khuddaka Nikaya, she actually became an Arahant. It is, together with the Theragāthā, in general quite an informative read about some of the eminent first practitioners of the Dhamma, who all knew the Buddha personally.
Maybe but I doubt she was performing sexual acrobatics upon the rich & famous men of the kingdom when she was a bhikkuni and becoming Arahant. Obviously, she ceased to be a high class prostitute therefore it appears inaccurate to keep saying a high class prostitute attained Arahantship. As I mentioned from MN 86:

Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The same would apply to Āmrapālī:

Then in that case, Āmrapālī, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally performing an unwholesome sexual act with any living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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