Musings about Tantra...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sam Vara
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Musings about Tantra...

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:10 pm
Well done for disrobing. Lay life is better these days than being a monk. I have resolved not to be a monk myself -- at best I may try it for a brief period if I'm not in a relationship. Monasticism is not as good anymore.
Hi Stiphan,

That's a big change for you! Your ambition was always to ordain. What has influenced you to change your mind? Is it the recent addition of "Tantric Sex" that appears in your signature? :jumping:

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Stephen18
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Stephen18 » Wed May 09, 2018 6:23 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:10 pm
Well done for disrobing. Lay life is better these days than being a monk. I have resolved not to be a monk myself -- at best I may try it for a brief period if I'm not in a relationship. Monasticism is not as good anymore.
Hi Stiphan,

That's a big change for you! Your ambition was always to ordain. What has influenced you to change your mind? Is it the recent addition of "Tantric Sex" that appears in your signature? :jumping:
Bang on!

JohnK
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by JohnK » Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:10 pm
...Monasticism is not as good anymore.
That's a big change for you!...Is it the recent addition of "Tantric Sex" that appears in your signature?
Bang on!
Is that the Tantric Sex mantra? :)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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Stephen18
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Stephen18 » Wed May 09, 2018 6:38 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:28 pm

That's a big change for you!...Is it the recent addition of "Tantric Sex" that appears in your signature?
Bang on!
Is that the Tantric Sex mantra? :)
I must try it. Sounds good.

JohnK
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by JohnK » Wed May 09, 2018 7:02 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:38 pm
I must try it. Sounds good.
I was making a small joke based on the possible two meanings of your reply "bang on!"
First I suspect is the one you intended: "Yes, Sam, you hit the nail on the head as to why I am now leaningh away from monastic life."
Second: "Bang" being slang in some places for sexual intercourse -- so your reply sounded a bit like "cheer" for sex -- like bike riders might say "Ride On!"
I forgot that you might miss the slang -- I thought it was funny before my long-winded explanation!
And good luck with it all.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]

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Stephen18
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Stephen18 » Wed May 09, 2018 7:07 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:02 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:38 pm
I must try it. Sounds good.
I was making a small joke based on the possible two meanings of your reply "bang on!"
First I suspect is the one you intended: "Yes, Sam, you hit the nail on the head as to why I am now leaningh away from monastic life."
Second: "Bang" being slang in some places for sexual intercourse -- so your reply sounded a bit like "cheer" for sex -- like bike riders might say "Ride On!"
I forgot that you might miss the slang -- I thought it was funny before my long-winded explanation!
And good luck with it all.
I know, I know. Double meanings. I won't try it, though. I was just joking back. Thanks!

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Sam Vara
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 7:09 pm

JohnK wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:02 pm
I was making a small joke based on the possible two meanings of your reply "bang on!"
First I suspect is the one you intended: "Yes, Sam, you hit the nail on the head as to why I am now leaningh away from monastic life."
Second: "Bang" being slang in some places for sexual intercourse -- so your reply sounded a bit like "cheer" for sex -- like bike riders might say "Ride On!"
I forgot that you might miss the slang -- I thought it was funny before my long-winded explanation!
And good luck with it all.
Your efforts are appreciated, JohnK! I was thinking of a reply along the lines of "But bang carefully!", but you beat me to it!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 09, 2018 7:36 pm

what does tantric sex have at all, whatsoever to do with buddhism? can i get a vomit smilie
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Grigoris
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 7:42 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 7:36 pm
what does tantric sex have at all, whatsoever to do with buddhism? can i get a vomit smilie
Tantric sex, as marketed in the New Age communities ,has zero to do with Buddhism. Tantric sexual practices that are found in Vajrayana are Buddhist (ie they comply to the Three/Four Dharma Seals). Thing is that the restrictions to sexual practice are so many that VERY few people (westerners in particular, since they tend to get into Dharma rather late in life) qualify either physically or spiritually to practice them.

Hence the fascination.

Stiphan, for example, is too old.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 09, 2018 8:15 pm

regardless of what is found in vajrayana buddhism, the buddha declared sex to be a burning pit of coals, low, vulgar, ignoble, a bridge to be burned. i know this is off-topic, so feel free to move it to another section.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Grigoris
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 8:54 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:15 pm
regardless of what is found in vajrayana buddhism, the buddha declared sex to be a burning pit of coals, low, vulgar, ignoble, a bridge to be burned.
For monastics and ascetics, yes. Are you a monastic and/or ascetic? I'm not. So for me, and others like me, the Buddha preached avoiding sexual misconduct.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 09, 2018 8:59 pm

not just monastics. see, dhammika sutta and potaliya sutta
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Grigoris
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:26 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:59 pm
not just monastics. see, dhammika sutta...
Which is about undertaking ascetic upposatha practices on specific days. Not in general.
...and potaliya sutta
Where the Buddha teaches on becoming an ascetic, a monk.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:29 pm

And, least we forget: Buddhist Tantra is not just about sexual practices.

Actually, the vast majority of Buddhist Tantra practitioners never learn sexual practices.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Musings about Tantra...

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 pm

"A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
this is not just talking about uposatha.

“Householder, suppose there were a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height full of glowing coals without flame or smoke. Then a man came who wanted to live and not to die, who wanted pleasure and recoiled from pain, and two strong men seized him by both arms and dragged him towards that charcoal pit. What do you think, householder? Would that man twist his body this way and that?”

“Yes, venerable sir. Why is that? Because that man knows that if he falls into that charcoal pit, he will incur death or deadly suffering because of that.”

“So too, householder, a noble disciple considers thus: ‘Sensual pleasures have been compared to a charcoal pit by the Blessed One; they provide much suffering and much despair, while the danger in them is great.’ Having seen this thus as it actually is with proper wisdom…clinging to the material things of the world utterly ceases without remainder.

https://suttacentral.net/mn54/en/bodhi
so i see, 'a noble disciple' is how ven bodhi translates 'ariyasāvako'
if we ignored dhammika sutta, you might have a point. so lets take a look at a discourse specifically for lay followers indulging in sensual pleasures

Then Ven. Ananda, together with Tapussa the householder, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Tapussa the householder, here, has said to me, 'Venerable Ananda, sir, we are householders who indulge in sensuality, delight in sensuality, enjoy sensuality, rejoice in sensuality. For us — indulging in sensuality, delighting in sensuality, enjoying sensuality, rejoicing in sensuality — renunciation seems like a sheer drop-off. Yet I've heard that in this doctrine & discipline the hearts of the very young monks leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. So right here is where this doctrine & discipline is contrary to the great mass of people: i.e., [this issue of] renunciation.'"

"So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

so you see, even if one doesn't make a commitment to renunciation, one should be evaluating the drawbacks of kama sutta. if we were not to divert from claim of some ultimate or liberating quality to sex, we would not slander the tathāgata like this. sex is a burden, but we have to clear out some of the brush to kill the weeds.

for good measure, just this sutta in its totality:

If one, longing for sensual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person — longing, desiring — the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow. Whoever avoids sensual desires — as he would, with his foot, the head of a snake — goes beyond, mindful, this attachment in the world. A man who is greedy for fields, land, gold, cattle, horses, servants, employees, women, relatives, many sensual pleasures, is overpowered with weakness and trampled by trouble, for pain invades him as water, a cracked boat. So one, always mindful, should avoid sensual desires. Letting them go, he'd cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

nevermind that an ideal layfollower such as citta, a non-returner, is wholly abstinent from sex and as well free of lust
the buddha never encouraged sex or described it any beneficial way. the dhamma is the same dhamma for everyone, there are just different levels of practice
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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